Joasht Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 The latest batch of codex rumors, coupled with the images of the new Assault Terminators, made me think a little bit more about them in the coming codex. TH+SS Terminators have naturally been good for quite some time. However, with the +1WS and +1S/+1I on the charge if a Sanguinary Priest is with them, I reckon even LC Terminators may have a place. Four WS5 S5 I5 attacks on the charge per model is nothing to sneeze at after all. Delivering them would, as usual, be an issue. If Drop Pods aren't an option, it might not be a terrible idea to SW Drop Pod them in, then deliver a Sanguinary Priest (and maybe even an AM Priest if TH+SS is taken) to them. What are your thoughts on Assault Terminators? Or will Sanguinary Guard fill a role similar to the LC Terminators, thus relegating the Terminators to purely TH+SS roles? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I think that Sang guards will do the slice and dice part of BA lists now, considering the points drop. 10 S guards with rage on them is 40 attacks on the charge. Pretty decent... Toss in a priest for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I have been doing alot of theory crafting on Assault Terminators and playtesting in a few games. Giving them a single priest for the FNP bonus alone is worth it im terms of dmg taken per point of model cost if you disregard the other bonus (which is now +1 WS and not FC). The calculation is only with 5 models in mind, run a 10man squad the priest gets cheaper of course. The math is quite clear, priests should always be auto include when running a termie list if you have enough slots. The offensive bonus of +1 WS is just icing, but actually affects them more than other units as each hit has a much larger return on investment. Now FNP does not help when getting hit with str 8+, but they are one of the worst targets to shoot at with these type of weapons. It's better to shoot regular MEQ out in the open than 3++ termies, you would be suprised how many people try to take them down with heavy firepower, bolters and similar are there largest counter which FNP takes care of. As for using Lightning Claws i'm not a huge fan one at max, it's just i want as many 3++ saves i can get, but vs many units having some claws will be better for sure. As for delivery there are several options, i belive one of the better ones is to simply start them footslogging at the center of the table spaced out 2" apart. Move and run them for two turns. This makes it alot more difficult for the opponent to move around if they are spaced correctly, it also can give 5+ cover to other units following behind. It's actually not that slow and your saving tons of points on transport. I'm not saying this is the best way, but i have tried vs a shooty lists and they did get the job done. Deepstriking means reserve rolls and turn 3 charge at best. Moving them up the table for two turns should get you to the same distance forcing opponent to the flanks if he dosnt want to deal with them. If they get focused and shot to death even better. Assault termies with 3++ are actually fairly decent. It just seems like GW is lost on how to balance Terminator's, esp. tactical termies are way overpriced. There is still hope for the assault termie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I am actually starting to agree... I used to categorically eschew clawminators in favor of hammernators, but clawminators become a lot more attractive when they have S 5, WS 5, and strike at I 5 (or even 6 if they run with Corbs!). I've already got a hammer squad; when I get my hands on the new box, I'm going to assemble the contents as clawminators. In fact, I'd say that clawminators get a lot more out of the new Blood Angels codex than hammernators do. Strength 9 is better than Strength 8, but not as much as Strength 5 is better than Strength 4 (because between 8 and 9, you are still wounding almost everything on 2s, and you are only marginally better at crushing vehicles you were pretty likely to kill anyway, whereas between 4 and 5, you go from wounding most enemies of 3 or 4 to wounding most enemies on 2 or 3 and how have a significantly better chance of destroying a vehicle that you would otherwise have probably failed to scratch). And while 2+/3++ save and FNP is great, that FNP matters a lot more to models who only have a 5++, because they're more likely to use it. And, finally, Quickening likewise helps a clawminator sergeant a lot more than it helps a hammernator sergeant, whose Initiative cannot be improved. The one thing clawminators need a lot more is delivery. Hammernators can often Deep Strike and weather the worst the enemy can throw at them (thanks to their 3++ - anecdotally, I once had a squad of hammernators with a priest tank a riptide for three rounds, one of them shooting!), whereas clawminators are more vulnerable. Additionally, you're going to want frag assault launchers so you don't lose that delicious I 5 to some obnoxious terrain. I'd say that the best delivery system is therefore a land raider. I prefer crusaders, myself, though even I can see the argument for a redeemer (the main weakness of clawminators being their lower Strength, the flamestorm cannon will help to soften up targets they will struggle with). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yup the str 9 won't really help that much. But the WS5 is pretty huge for termies in general. I guess i just prefer something that can start out in the open. Now that DC can jump around maybe there is room for some LC termies in a transport. It just makes me sad when i see them get shot to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yup the str 9 won't really help that much. But the WS5 is pretty huge for termies in general. I guess i just prefer something that can start out in the open. Now that DC can jump around maybe there is room for some LC termies in a transport. It just makes me sad when i see them get shot to death. Strength 9 isn't bad. It's just not as big an improvement. It's more like "Strength 5 for clawminators is a game-changer, Strength 9 for hammernators is a nice buff." And yeah, clawminators cannot start in the open. They will never get where they are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Eisenhorn Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Sorry to butt in here with something not directly contributing to the discussion, but I was wondering--those pictures of the terminators that leaked showed some storm bolter terminators too, http://imgur.com/a/Z2FMg and they have BA insignia sculpted into the arms, including an assault cannon. These aren't from the Space Hulk set, so I am wondering where these came from, if the box that is arriving is "assault" terminators. Edit: Nevermind: I just remembered shoulder pads are still separate from terminator arms, so obviously those are a kit bash with the regular terminator box. Still, good to know we can bling out any terminators with the new kit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Sorry to butt in here with something not directly contributing to the discussion, but I was wondering--those pictures of the terminators that leaked showed some storm bolter terminators too, http://imgur.com/a/Z2FMg and they have BA insignia sculpted into the arms, including an assault cannon. These aren't from the Space Hulk set, so I am wondering where these came from, if the box that is arriving is "assault" terminators. Yep. Looks like it's a dual kit. Or, alternately, the photos are meant to show off what you can do by combining the bits from this kit with a standard tactical terminator box. I can't tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Like most others who remember the original Space Hulk they were my first introduction to 40k years before I even knew what Warhammer was. The Boys & Girls Club I went to over summers had a copy and I played the hell out of it. I love me some termies. Did someone say we could field a 10-man squad of Sanguinary Guard? I was pretty sure the max squad size was 5... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Like most others who remember the original Space Hulk they were my first introduction to 40k years before I even knew what Warhammer was. The Boys & Girls Club I went to over summers had a copy and I played the hell out of it. I love me some termies. Did someone say we could field a 10-man squad of Sanguinary Guard? I was pretty sure the max squad size was 5... It has been confirmed that you can add to the squad. Max is said to be 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Sorry to butt in here with something not directly contributing to the discussion, but I was wondering--those pictures of the terminators that leaked showed some storm bolter terminators too, http://imgur.com/a/Z2FMg and they have BA insignia sculpted into the arms, including an assault cannon. These aren't from the Space Hulk set, so I am wondering where these came from, if the box that is arriving is "assault" terminators. Yep. Looks like it's a dual kit. Or, alternately, the photos are meant to show off what you can do by combining the bits from this kit with a standard tactical terminator box. I can't tell. Agreed. That Tactical Termie squad is just a normal kit with BA heads and shoulders. The more I think about it the more excited I get for that kit to drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Str 5 claws at init 5 are great, but it seems i would DC would be more capable of filling that role coming out of a transport considering they have better survivability post assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Like most others who remember the original Space Hulk they were my first introduction to 40k years before I even knew what Warhammer was. The Boys & Girls Club I went to over summers had a copy and I played the hell out of it. I love me some termies. Did someone say we could field a 10-man squad of Sanguinary Guard? I was pretty sure the max squad size was 5... It has been confirmed that you can add to the squad. Max is said to be 10. WOOO!!!!! Oh man I need to take some WIP pics of what I've got on my desk. Normally I don't like doing that but I'm pretty sure you guys will approve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 ...DC would be more capable of filling that role coming out of a transport considering they have better survivability post assault. I'm not sure I agree. The only thing death company has over assault terminators is native FNP. Terminators, on the other hand, have 2+ and 5++ Since we are already talking about fielding clawminators with a priest, their FNP will be just as good as death company's. I think that terminators accompanied by a priest are more durable than death company. That's not to say that death company is no good! They have, potentially, many more attacks, not to mention being Fearless! However, clawminators benefit from universal power weapons and the Shred USR. I'd say they have different targets, and both of them are useful in many lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Per point death company are quite durable compared to 5++ termies, and with the new bases they are not that prone to templates and blasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaweda Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I just want to send them in against Deathwing Knights and laugh when they hit first and at a higher strength! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 At what point does one have too many Terminators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I love lightning claws in everything but model! The current ones are just a power fist with a weird butter knife knucle duster that somehow isn't unwieldy.... The old metal ones are nice but I think id have to use count as weapons for them myself, like some heresy era power chain axes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I'm tempted to make my own. I've got a pile of Kromlech khopeshes that I need to find a use for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!! So it seems I got like 75% of my "Thunder Scalpel" Priests painted. Screw it. Might as well finish and just attach shields to the Narth arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushman101 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I run a mix of LC and TH&SS Termis. I usually run about 75% of the unit TH&SS Termis to soak any AP 1/2 wounds which should get my LC into combat hitting at initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I think the banner they get is redundant, so don't take it. Does GW sometimes read it's own rules? The banner gets rerolls for morale. Like marines with ATSKNF ever had problems due to morale :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 I think the banner they get is redundant, so don't take it. Does GW sometimes read it's own rules? The banner gets rerolls for morale. Like marines with ATSKNF ever had problems due to morale The banner is just to make sure they don't go anywhere. If it's cheap and you intend to use the Terminators to hold a point I'd reckon it's not horrible, but I'm almost sure it will be disproportionately expensive, and it probably goes better on Tactical Terminators anyway. I hope the codex does have another banner that gives a +1A bubble though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushman101 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I hope the codex does have another banner that gives a +1A bubble though. Yeah. I'm hoping we get more than just one choice of banner (simmilar to the Chapter and Company banner option in old dex) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I doubt it lest we step on the toes of the DAs. As one who was angry when the vanilla bean boys got our gear, I would not like to copy what someone else has just for the benefits. Though didn't we have that banner in the honor guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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