New BA as allies

[Landrick]

Yeah Angel Wing will be nice for delivering a Terminator blob Turn 1 reliably and preventing Riptides just vaping you when you arrive.

So did we decide it is legit to attach an IC to one of our units from another dex and have them DS turn 1?

I just got the new book, and I am liking the new Sanguinary Priest with a JP or the relic attached to Paladins or Terminators. He is cheaper than the paladin apothecary an can jump away 12" if another unit needs him

[Quozzo]

There's no dispute about attaching an IC to a GK squad iirc, but most would be opposed to a GK IC retaining the rule when attached to a non GK unit, if not all.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So did we decide it is legit to attach an IC to one of our units from another dex and have them DS turn 1? 

 

Until GW decide how a mixed faction unit is supposed to work, that is how by RAW it works. The GK unit never loses 'Rites', the BA character never loses the bonuses granted by 'Angel Wing'. 

I just got the new book, and I am liking the new Sanguinary Priest with a JP or the relic attached to Paladins or Terminators. He is cheaper than the paladin apothecary an can jump away 12" if another unit needs him 

 

Yeah its very odd that the Narthecium works on friendlies without restriction. It just says 'the model and his unit', not 'Blood Angels only'. Looks like a Sang Priest with Angel Wing for 85 is our new best buddy. 

 

There's no dispute about attaching an IC to a GK squad iirc, but most would be opposed to a GK IC retaining the rule when attached to a non GK unit, if not all. 

 

 

(shrug) You can be opposed to it, but that's how it works. I'm opposed to Riptides having Interceptor :) but I doubt I'll get a house rule which prevents that. 

 

At the end of the day man, none of the interactions of stacking detachment bonuses end up being too powerful. Our most obnoxious combo by far is Draigo+Grav Centurion, and its ironclad legal (unless you're opposed to Battle Brother alliances). 

[Landrick]

thanks for the feedback!

[Landrick]

So to further clarify these ally rules, could i do the following:

Take a unit of GKT with a Priest and the JP relic - DS turn one with reduced scatter?

Take a unit of BA Assault TDA with a GK Libby and DS turn one?

If Dante is taken with the above BA units, can their reserve roll be re-rolled?

Thanks!

[Brom MKIV]

This again? The camps are divided. Best advice is address it locally with your opponents because it will be contended and the answer is not clear cut.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Take a unit of GKT with a Priest and the JP relic - DS turn one with reduced scatter?

 

Yep

 

Take a unit of BA Assault TDA with a GK Libby and DS turn one?

 

 

Yep

 

If Dante is taken with the above BA units, can their reserve roll be re-rolled?

 

 

Yep. I usually take a Comms Array to do that anyway though. 

 

This again? The camps are divided. Best advice is address it locally with your opponents because it will be contended and the answer is not clear cut. 

 

 

Well no, some people just don't like it. But GW have completely ignored this aspect of the rules, and continue to print loopholes in new army books (see the wording for Narthecium on Sang Priests for BA, 'this model and his unit'). 

 

Look, if GW ever bother to FAQ this stuff, I'll be the first in line to use the new restrictions and rules. But that's the point. There is no guidance on what happens when you mix Allies together by attaching IC's to friendly units. By RAW, models can't lose their faction or detachment bonuses, so they stack. That's how other special rules work, they can be combined unless specified otherwise. 

[Landrick]

Thanks again!!

[Quozzo]

Im a still a strong advocate that IC joins a unit and become part of that unit for all rules purposes. No where does it say that the rule is conferred to the unit.

[Zeratul29]

Idk if I could say a GK IC attached to a BA squad gets the GK detachment rules. But definitely the over way around.

[Brom MKIV]

 

Well no, some people just don't like it. But GW have completely ignored this aspect of the rules, and continue to print loopholes in new army books (see the wording for Narthecium on Sang Priests for BA, 'this model and his unit'). 

 

Look, if GW ever bother to FAQ this stuff, I'll be the first in line to use the new restrictions and rules. But that's the point. There is no guidance on what happens when you mix Allies together by attaching IC's to friendly units. By RAW, models can't lose their faction or detachment bonuses, so they stack. That's how other special rules work, they can be combined unless specified otherwise. 

 

I get what your saying RD. I'm not saying your reading of the rules isn't correct [potentially] and It's not that I feel its OP'd or even all that good when you start going full on competitive. I personally just don't like loopholes or grey areas unless everyone is on board. 

 

I feel it promotes the whole 'loophole mentality' which snowballs pretty quickly because some people don't see the difference.. read "that guy". It's the whole 'you did it with your army' type of mindset and falls into the same camp as grav ignores cover, super heavy walkers stomping units outside of combat, immobilized jinking skimmers, 3++ invuln CCBs etc etc. 

 

One good turn deserves another right? Then the game ends up being a debate about rules with no clear answers. I personally avoid these issues. However if local custom says all gloves off then cool. Free for all!

[Gaz1858]

To get by all this why not just take drop pod? Put the BA character with the relic in that attached to whatever GK unit. That way your coming in turn one and getting the relics benefits. No worries about rules crossover etc

[Brom MKIV]

Aaand right on cue..

 

Anyone fancy 3 storm ravens with 30 tacs packing teleport homers that arrive turn1 with rerolls and let dreadknights and terminators assault from deep strike?!!

 

Well here ya go 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300476-new-ba-formations-in-wd-47/page-2

 

Should just leave room for 2 NDKs some termies and a couple HQs.

[Zeratul29]

Yeah the raven formation is what GK should have. Not that crappy brotherhood formation which is useless even in apoc and is too expensive for normal games...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Im a still a strong advocate that IC joins a unit and become part of that unit for all rules purposes. No where does it say that the rule is conferred to the unit. 

 

 

Right. But say its a Grey Knight Librarian joining a Blood Angel Terminator unit. Does he lose his faction (Grey Knights)? Nope. Does he stop being part of the Nemesis Strikeforce (and therefore cease benefiting from 'Rites of Teleportation')? Nope. And vice versa, neither do the Blood Angel Terminators lose any of their detachment bonuses. 

 

That's the central problem. GW have been very clear that every model in your army MUST have a faction and detachment they belong to. They can't lose either attribute, no matter what. But Battle Brothers allows you to have mixed units of models from different detachments and factions. And then they leave us out in the cold with no guidance as how that unit behaves. Hence, my point about RAW. By RAW, it works. 

 

Like I said earlier, I'll be first in line for a good FAQ to this issue. But until that day (and GW have had this long to FAQ 7th), we're stuck with 'well I guess they keep their detachment and faction rules...all of them'. 

 

Idk if I could say a GK IC attached to a BA squad gets the GK detachment rules. But definitely the over way around. 

 

 

But that's literally just your opinion man. That's my point, it works both ways under RAW, with zero restriction. I'd clarify that the 'Furious Charge' USR all BA have wouldn't transfer (as its not a unit special rule, its actually stated to be BA models). But any kind of 'this unit may re-roll scatter' type rule or so forth would, because those rules don't care about mixed units, they only care you have at least one model in that unit which is from the detachment. 

I get what your saying RD. I'm not saying your reading of the rules isn't correct [potentially] and It's not that I feel its OP'd or even all that good when you start going full on competitive. I personally just don't like loopholes or grey areas unless everyone is on board. 

 

I feel it promotes the whole 'loophole mentality' which snowballs pretty quickly because some people don't see the difference.. read "that guy". It's the whole 'you did it with your army' type of mindset and falls into the same camp as grav ignores cover, super heavy walkers stomping units outside of combat, immobilized jinking skimmers, 3++ invuln CCBs etc etc. 

 

One good turn deserves another right? Then the game ends up being a debate about rules with no clear answers. I personally avoid these issues. However if local custom says all gloves off then cool. Free for all!

 

Consider Unbound. Its utterly retarded, it is blatant marketing to excitable 12 years olds to go buy all the power units and play them as an army. Now, I fully accept that the Force Org chart doesn't exactly prevent cheese, but its at least a fig leaf, and it taxes power builds at least slightly. Under Unbound, it literally is mini-Apocalypse, except without the balancing factor of both sides have acres of points to spend on Titans etc. 

 

Now, the player base have utterly rejected Unbound as an abomination, as have tourney organisers. This is a good thing. But, under the rules, its a perfectly legitimate version of 40k, the same way Apoc or Planetstrike are. 

 

By the same token, if you find certain Battle Brother combos stupid in your local meta, you can have gentlemans agreements to not do it, or simply not play those people. In competitive play though, you can't escape it, anymore than you can avoid TripTide or Serpent Spam. 

 

I have these arguments on the forums a lot about the loopholes and issues with 40k rules. I get people don't like them. I often don't either. But it's no good to simply say 'well meh I won't play against it then'. You should be aware of such things, and innovate around them. For example, against TripTide, combat squad, or deploy normally and use LoS blocking terrain to shield your advance, use Shunt units etc. 

 

This issue of BB rules stacking is par for course with GW. Look at mech in 5th, and look at their absurd overreaction in 6th and 7th. GW often fail to provide us with consistent rules, nevermind balanced. We're always going to suffer from their incompetence and their refusal to face reality. Their design team are the poster child for casuals, they even admit as such in their pathetic WD batreps. Which is fine for them, but its incredibly annoying for the rest of us. Casuals get crushed when they try new things, and at the hyper-competitive end entire factions (nevermind army builds) are rendered worthless by a simple edition change. 

Aaand right on cue..

 

Anyone fancy 3 storm ravens with 30 tacs packing teleport homers that arrive turn1 with rerolls and let dreadknights and terminators assault from deep strike?!!

 

Well here ya go 

http://www.bolterand...in-wd-47/page-2

 

Should just leave room for 2 NDKs some termies and a couple HQs.

 

Top kek. Tacticals. This has got to be a....

Augur triangulation:

If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

 

No. NO. NO WAY. ARE YOU INSANE GW? 

 

Oh man, sign me up! First turn charging with a full GKT squad, with an Angel Wing Priest to ensure they benefit and don't die to Interceptor. 

 

Calling it here first. GK's confirmed for most broken BB's. 

[Ishagu]

New BA codex is excellent. I would take (as allies) a Libby Dread or Priest, 10 Tacticals - combi flamer, flamer/plasmas, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod, Grav Bikers, Death Company jump unit, Predator variant

 

Im a still a strong advocate that IC joins a unit and become part of that unit for all rules purposes. No where does it say that the rule is conferred to the unit.

 

 

Right. But say its a Grey Knight Librarian joining a Blood Angel Terminator unit. Does he lose his faction (Grey Knights)? Nope. Does he stop being part of the Nemesis Strikeforce (and therefore cease benefiting from 'Rites of Teleportation')? Nope. And vice versa, neither do the Blood Angel Terminators lose any of their detachment bonuses.

 

That's the central problem. GW have been very clear that every model in your army MUST have a faction and detachment they belong to. They can't lose either attribute, no matter what. But Battle Brothers allows you to have mixed units of models from different detachments and factions. And then they leave us out in the cold with no guidance as how that unit behaves. Hence, my point about RAW. By RAW, it works.

 

Like I said earlier, I'll be first in line for a good FAQ to this issue. But until that day (and GW have had this long to FAQ 7th), we're stuck with 'well I guess they keep their detachment and faction rules...all of them'.

 

Idk if I could say a GK IC attached to a BA squad gets the GK detachment rules. But definitely the over way around.

 

 

But that's literally just your opinion man. That's my point, it works both ways under RAW, with zero restriction. I'd clarify that the 'Furious Charge' USR all BA have wouldn't transfer (as its not a unit special rule, its actually stated to be BA models). But any kind of 'this unit may re-roll scatter' type rule or so forth would, because those rules don't care about mixed units, they only care you have at least one model in that unit which is from the detachment.

I get what your saying RD. I'm not saying your reading of the rules isn't correct [potentially] and It's not that I feel its OP'd or even all that good when you start going full on competitive. I personally just don't like loopholes or grey areas unless everyone is on board.

I feel it promotes the whole 'loophole mentality' which snowballs pretty quickly because some people don't see the difference.. read "that guy". It's the whole 'you did it with your army' type of mindset and falls into the same camp as grav ignores cover, super heavy walkers stomping units outside of combat, immobilized jinking skimmers, 3++ invuln CCBs etc etc.

One good turn deserves another right? Then the game ends up being a debate about rules with no clear answers. I personally avoid these issues. However if local custom says all gloves off then cool. Free for all!

 

Consider Unbound. Its utterly retarded, it is blatant marketing to excitable 12 years olds to go buy all the power units and play them as an army. Now, I fully accept that the Force Org chart doesn't exactly prevent cheese, but its at least a fig leaf, and it taxes power builds at least slightly. Under Unbound, it literally is mini-Apocalypse, except without the balancing factor of both sides have acres of points to spend on Titans etc.

 

Now, the player base have utterly rejected Unbound as an abomination, as have tourney organisers. This is a good thing. But, under the rules, its a perfectly legitimate version of 40k, the same way Apoc or Planetstrike are.

 

By the same token, if you find certain Battle Brother combos stupid in your local meta, you can have gentlemans agreements to not do it, or simply not play those people. In competitive play though, you can't escape it, anymore than you can avoid TripTide or Serpent Spam.

 

I have these arguments on the forums a lot about the loopholes and issues with 40k rules. I get people don't like them. I often don't either. But it's no good to simply say 'well meh I won't play against it then'. You should be aware of such things, and innovate around them. For example, against TripTide, combat squad, or deploy normally and use LoS blocking terrain to shield your advance, use Shunt units etc.

 

This issue of BB rules stacking is par for course with GW. Look at mech in 5th, and look at their absurd overreaction in 6th and 7th. GW often fail to provide us with consistent rules, nevermind balanced. We're always going to suffer from their incompetence and their refusal to face reality. Their design team are the poster child for casuals, they even admit as such in their pathetic WD batreps. Which is fine for them, but its incredibly annoying for the rest of us. Casuals get crushed when they try new things, and at the hyper-competitive end entire factions (nevermind army builds) are rendered worthless by a simple edition change.

Aaand right on cue..

Anyone fancy 3 storm ravens with 30 tacs packing teleport homers that arrive turn1 with rerolls and let dreadknights and terminators assault from deep strike?!!

Well here ya go

http://www.bolterand...in-wd-47/page-2

Should just leave room for 2 NDKs some termies and a couple HQs.

 

Top kek. Tacticals. This has got to be a....

Augur triangulation:

If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

 

No. NO. NO WAY. ARE YOU INSANE GW?

 

Oh man, sign me up! First turn charging with a full GKT squad, with an Angel Wing Priest to ensure they benefit and don't die to Interceptor.

 

Calling it here first. GK's confirmed for most broken BB's.

Only blood angels themselves benefit from the rule. Also the formation is around 1000 points. Nothing left for cool units.

 

It's Apoc only as far as I'm concerned

[Brom MKIV]

Only blood angels themselves benefit from the rule.

 

 

Not if you play that ICs keep their cmd bennies like were discussing.

 

 

 

By the same token, if you find certain Battle Brother combos stupid in your local meta, you can have gentlemans agreements to not do it, or simply not play those people. In competitive play though, you can't escape it, anymore than you can avoid TripTide or Serpent Spam. 

 

I have these arguments on the forums a lot about the loopholes and issues with 40k rules. I get people don't like them. I often don't either. But it's no good to simply say 'well meh I won't play against it then'. You should be aware of such things, and innovate around them. For example, against TripTide, combat squad, or deploy normally and use LoS blocking terrain to shield your advance, use Shunt units etc. 

 

This issue of BB rules stacking is par for course with GW. Look at mech in 5th, and look at their absurd overreaction in 6th and 7th. GW often fail to provide us with consistent rules, nevermind balanced. We're always going to suffer from their incompetence and their refusal to face reality. Their design team are the poster child for casuals, they even admit as such in their pathetic WD batreps. Which is fine for them, but its incredibly annoying for the rest of us. Casuals get crushed when they try new things, and at the hyper-competitive end entire factions (nevermind army builds) are rendered worthless by a simple edition change.

I have literally never turned down a game. What I will commit to play and what I play against are two very different things, but thats a personal choice and has nothing to do with power level of units.

 

On topic I would like to see examples of common builds around the tourney scene that indulge this interaction. I follow the major tournaments in the US but I cannot say I remember ever seeing a list that did, which is partly what leads me to believe the majority of competitive level players do not endorse it. However I'd be happy to be proven wrong. 

[Ishagu]

I don't think an IC would confer the dataslate rule to the squad

 

Would work the other way round however. Draigo could join some ba deepstriking terminators for example.

 

Being in the transport would also work...

[L30n1d4s]

I think a very interesting combo will be allied Commander Dante and allied BA JP Libby (Relic JP, Relic AP2 Sword, Inferno Pistol, PML(2) with Divination) attached to a 10 man GK Interceptor Squad.

 

-The Interceptor Squad provides shooting (8 x SBs and 2 x Incinerators), rapid movement (can detach and shunt 30" to get an objective when required), a decent number of force weapon attacks on the charge, and +2S (Hammerhand) for the entire unit.

 

-The Libby provides some more AP2 attacks (S7 with Hammerhand and Furious Charge) and the all important Prescience, making the entire unit re-roll to hit in both shooting and close combat (plus any other Divination powers that he rolls... 4++ for the squad and all attacks have rending could be quite useful, for example). With Prescience activated, the Interceptor Squad has 17 x AP3 attacks on the charge, of which about 12-13 will hit and 10-11 will wound (with S6 from Hammerhand) against a standard MEQ opponent, so that is quite potent against anything without a 2+ save. He also provides another Inferno Pistol for anti-tank/anti-Terminator duty. Finally, his Relic Jump Pack makes DSing less dangerous for the whole unit (I am assuming Dante is not the WL, since this is a GK based army) and ensures that they won't get devastasted by Tau Interceptor fire on the turn they come in.

 

-Dante gives the whole unit Hit and Run and Fearless, not to mention he can tank with his 2+/4++ saves, EW, and 4W. On the charge, he has 6 x S6 AP2 attacks, all at I6. If you get Hammerhand and Prescience off, then he is re-rolling all to Hits and striking at S8 AP2, I6 (S8 becomes S9 on the charge due to Furious Charge). He also provides a little anti-tank/anti-Terminator ability, with his BS5 Inferno Pistol. Overall, especially with a S8 Axe Mortalis striking at I6, he should be able to go toe to toe with some of the toughest characters out there, including Abbadon, Ghazkull, and Draigo. Together Dante and the Librarian put out 10 x S9/S7 AP2 attacks on the charge, all at initiative 6/Initiative 4, so that is a very dangerous threat to even 2+ amor units.

[Brom MKIV]

I think its a cool idea L30n1d4s. 

 

So I was musing some more on that new BAs formation and I think that GKs will be the only allies which can avoid an auto loss via callidus assassin due to having the only other reserves that actually roll turn 1. Otherwise if people get annoyed with the build the assassin pretty much crushes it before the game even begins. Very corner case I know but specific counters come out when things start to dominate. 

[Zeratul29]

Personally, I think playing it like the IC rule regarding Infiltrate helps determine this situation as it's similar in nature.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think a very interesting combo will be allied Commander Dante and allied BA JP Libby (Relic JP, Relic AP2 Sword, Inferno Pistol, PML(2) with Divination) attached to a 10 man GK Strike Squad.

 

I think you mean Interceptors, give you talk about Shunt moves. Dante is a big pointsink dude, I'd think carefully before taking him. 

 

Personally, I think playing it like the IC rule regarding Infiltrate helps determine this situation as it's similar in nature. 

 

 

But its not. This is my point. Infiltrate has an entire box section dedicated to its usage and interactions regarding IC's and mixed units (ie some having Infiltrate, others not). But GW have made it abundantly clear that detachment and faction bonuses never turn off, because a model can never lose them, as it has to belong to both a faction and detachment at all times. 

[Zeratul29]

Well when you put it that way....

[Ishagu]

I don't think putting a BA ic in a squad belonging to another army allows that squad to deepstrike turn 1 and charge.

 

I also don't believe a formation costing around 1000 points is worth considering as it leaves the rest of the army lacking.

 

That being said, a Tac Squad in drop pod, Sanguinary Priest and a Tri las Predator would make excellent additions to a GK army.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't think putting a BA ic in a squad belonging to another army allows that squad to deepstrike turn 1 and charge.

 

No, you're confusing several issues;

 

All Grey Knight units in a Nemesis Strikeforce (would you take anything else?) have the 'Rites of Teleportation' special rule. They can never lose it, as they can never become part of another detachment, or become a different faction. They're always Faction: Grey Knights and Detachment: Nemesis Strikeforce. 

 

The formation I was referring to earlier can only work Turn 1 if you take 3x Skyshields (as the Ravens can't start on-table without them). Otherwise, they don't come on till Turn 2 anyway, which lacks synergy with our preferred Turn 1 Deepstrike. That said, what I'm mentioning below can still apply to a Turn 2 assault. You just need to Shadow Skies the Tacticals out and in a triangular pattern, to get the stupid special rule to trigger. 

 

When the Raven formation checks to see if a Blood Angel unit is Deepstriking, it doesn't care if the unit has only one model that's a Blood Angel, or all. You only need one. It's the same for 'Rites', it likewise doesn't care if the unit is entirely GK or only has a single model (ie you can do this with a BA Angel Wing Priest+GKT, or a GK Libby+BA Stormhammers). 

 

If you don't believe me, check the wording. It's that open. 

I also don't believe a formation costing around 1000 points is worth considering as it leaves the rest of the army lacking.

 

Yeah but like all formations they ignore Force Org so you only pay the formation costs, not min Scouts+HQ tax as well. 30 Tacs is...abhorrent, but its still 30 Tacs, which is a scoring presence (however pathetic they are at actually doing damage to the enemy, they're still MeQ bodies that have to die). 3x Ravens is a problem for a lot of armies, their Skyfire won't kill all of them, and they're formidable gunships to both other Flyers and ground targets. 

 

It's probably a combo best suited to 2k, especially if you plan on doing the triple Skyshield version for a Turn 1 Deepstrike+charge. 

That being said, a Tac Squad in drop pod, Sanguinary Priest and a Tri las Predator would make excellent additions to a GK army. 

 

Tactical Marines are bad, regardless of codex. Min Scouts is cheaper, and you can get the pod in FA anyway. Sang Priest with Angel Wing is probably going to end up being standard issue (and not just for us, Stormhammers love giving Riptides and other Interceptor the middle finger as they teleport into their lines). Preds are okay, I'd rather invest in DK's though (more damage output and they can fight in melee, plus mobility).