Brom MKIV Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I really want to agree that my termies can cast hammerhand and force but the phrase in te BRB, "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". How are you guys suggesting a way round this? In a nutshell it can interpreted one of two ways.. either mastery level = number of powers manifest, OR number of powers known = number of powers manifest. We play the latter. So I just got done with a very close game abusing invisibility the RAW way with centurions. I lost. Even with invis up my star took damage and the turn my shields were down I lost 2 of my cents and draigo. Without the full use of the power I believe the game would not of been close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Thats why I'm always preaching local custom. Too many descrepancies across the spectrum. Its like politics.. your really just shooting for 60% approval when it comes to rulings Lol. Anyone who travels to different shops, groups, tourneys etc knows what I'm talking about. Basically become familiar with the local rules and abide. On the bright side though its also one contributor to why we see any diversity at all across the different tournaments. Interpretation/faq/errata. Each create their own meta.. to an extent. Again I really don't see the change to invis as game breaking for the armies built to abuse it. Draigo cents doesn't care about 4 hits per blast stick, or about getting hit on 5s in combat. Hounds and seerstar really don't either. Their huge offensive output didn't diminish. The nerf to number of powers they can manifest is much worse IMO (and unnecessary but dems da breaks). The 'community' calls for gaming reform and someone stepped up. We're not calling for reform. We're calling for an FAQ to the main rulebook that isn't just 'lel Precision Shots are still impossible to define' + 'superheavies stomp this way'. The main rulebook FAQ is pathetic. I agree that you largely have to make agreements with your opponents on a lot of things, but something as basic as the Psychic phase should beyond such things. Its like having people make ad hoc agreements on how far infantry move. I really want to agree that my termies can cast hammerhand and force but the phrase in te BRB, "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". How are you guys suggesting a way round this? It's not a rule, its explanatory text. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 The psychic phase is still relatively new to this setting, so I do think a long period of irritation is understandable. I think the implementation might have been done better. Agreed on the rulebook faq needing to be better tho Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Just had a look at the new Bangel dex. So sorry guys, you got nerfed harder than us, I think. :( But hey, GW opened ally shenanigans again with 60 point Priests that are ICs and give FnP *to their unit* with no Faction: Blood Angels restriction. Sign me up for free FnP to my units please. At least Sanguinary Guard are the same cost as our Terminators. Basically, GW are going "Don't you *ever* use your own Terminators. Ally in Grey Knights, or Wolves please". More choice in Drop Pods for Sisters, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights. Frag Cannons re still obnoxiously good. And Grav has been handed out. No surprise really, as Bangles are only a shade away from a 'Codex' Chapter now. I'd expect them to be rolled in now, over the Templars. They are that close. And the special Bangle only Detachment still has Troop requirements, so no full Jump Pack armies either. Bad GW, bad. Sorry guys. :( /hug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 RD, I said it had a sense of balancing, not that it made sense or was balanced. I meant that the ruling was an obvious attempt at balancing, even though it quite frankly is not. Yes, it makes the most sense that PML units can attempt to cast every power known, and that the units PML determines powers known. However, GW wrote a very wishy-washy rule that does not relay an intent. BAO/LVO seem to have taken the more conservative interpretation on how Psychic Powers work in order to midigate domination of the Psychic phase. Is it the right decision for the community? No. Is it the right decision for their tournament? We shall see. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 The only psychic army that won't care about that ruling is summoning armies while every other army with Psykers suffer. This also puts GK in even a more of a tough spot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I draw the line at tournies making changes to rules. At that its just a popularity contest, "What army stomped the TO last?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 RD, I said it had a sense of balancing, not that it made sense or was balanced. I meant that the ruling was an obvious attempt at balancing, even though it quite frankly is not. Yes, it makes the most sense that PML units can attempt to cast every power known, and that the units PML determines powers known. However, GW wrote a very wishy-washy rule that does not relay an intent. BAO/LVO seem to have taken the more conservative interpretation on how Psychic Powers work in order to midigate domination of the Psychic phase. But their interpretation doesn't affect the broken psychic armies (Eldar, Daemons etc), while it punishes any army with mostly Mastery 1's (ie us). It doesn't mitigate any problematic combos (ScreamerStar, SeerStar etc), and it doesn't tone down the most powerful psykers in the game (Mastery 2's and 3's literally don't care). It's a dumb way to go if you're gonna break with convention, and not even improve the meta-game. I draw the line at tournies making changes to rules. At that its just a popularity contest, "What army stomped the TO last?" It's still worth talking about, as GW have incorporated community rulings into their official FAQ's before, and they do pay attention (sometimes) to what the competitive scene is doing. And if you're going to be playing in one of those tournaments, it's definitely worth discussing what variant rulings and restrictions are in place. But yeah, in more general terms, each tourney is different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 No point using Ba as allies over vanilla marines. Grey Knights need ap2 shooting, cheap AA and long range support. C:SM does all that better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Well the Angel Wing Priest can bring down Terminators or Paladins very accurately and largely negate Interceptor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 If you really believe deep striking is the best way to play GK... Me? I keep my Termies in Landraiders and Shunt teleporting units forward at the right time... To be blunt, your typical Grey Knights unit simply doesn't have the firepower to make an initial splash when deepstriking. Purifiers could do some damage, yes. But everything else? Meh Grav Centurions out of a BA/Sw drop pod - that's Scary! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 No point using Ba as allies over vanilla marines. Grey Knights need ap2 shooting, cheap AA and long range support. C:SM does all that better. We also need drop pods for our purifiers, and C:SM can't do that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 No point using Ba as allies over vanilla marines. Grey Knights need ap2 shooting, cheap AA and long range support. C:SM does all that better. We also need drop pods for our purifiers, and C:SM can't do that That is true, the purifiers are the one unit that does really benefit from BA or Space Wolves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3903869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I to have mostly gone away from heavy Deep Striking, using more of a Shunt Punch list backed by Gating Draigo Bomb. About the only unit worth Deep Striking are Strikers, because they need that mobility. Versus a non-Intercepting opponent, I'll Deep Strike more units, although Shunt and Gate are safer and do roughly the same thing. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Add me to that list. DS is a tool but as a main strategy it has a lot of risks we cannot completely mitigate. I take NSF for the FOC and the option of arriving turn 1. Otherwise I prefer a smattering of DS + shunts and GoI. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 No point using Ba as allies over vanilla marines. Grey Knights need ap2 shooting, cheap AA and long range support. C:SM does all that better. We also need drop pods for our purifiers, and C:SM can't do that That is true, the purifiers are the one unit that does really benefit from BA or Space Wolves Are you forgetting about the SPriest's FNP? For 5 points more than a paladin you get the same profile, bar 2+, with FNP to any squad of your choice, not just paladins. If you include the cost of the paladin on top of the "apothecary" upgrade then the SPriest is cheaper than the apothecary. For the two troops choices you can take Raphen's death company and Cassor the Damned (DC Dread) but will need one of those FA pods for the dread, another can be used for the combat squaded purifiers. The GK terminators will obviously be teleported in along with the SPriest with the relic jump pack. You could even take a GK librarian to boost the already absurd strength of the DC to 7! (if you take them as part of the Baal Strike force then they have I5, S7, 5 attacks on the charge (Raphen has 6 with his hammer) and FNP. Alternatively you could take Captain Karlean for his warlord trait to reroll reserve rolls (no faction specified and +1 to seize the initiative) Here's my list Blood Angels Baal Strike Force (Primary) HQ Captain Karlaen (160) (Warlord) Sanguinary Priest, The Angel's Wing (85) Elite Furioso Dreadnought, Frag cannon, Heavy flamer (140) Troops Raphen's Death Company (210) Cassor the Damned (140) Fast Attack 3x Drop Pod (105) Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force HQ Librarian (110) Elite 10x Purifiers, 2x hammers (270) Troops Terminators, Psycannon, 4x Falchions, Hammer (206) Heavy Support Dreadknight, Teleporter, H.Flamer, G.Psilencer (210) Dreadknight, Teleporter, H.Flamer, G.Psilencer (210) Fast Attack Storm Raven, multi-melta (200) Total: 1976 Sanguinary Priest and Karlaen join the GK terminators. The librarian can join the Raphen's DC if he wont restrict their movement too much in favour for the buffs. The Furioso and Purifiers embark a pod each and arrive turn one, along with the terminators (hopefully). The dreadknights also shunt up the table and burn/shoot things along with the Furioso and purifiers. The storm raven, DC and Cassor come in turn 2 providing some anti air and mop up anything else. Alternatively you could take the mandatory BA troops slots for scouts which act as beacons for more terminators to come in. The question is do you take Karlaen for his reserve rerolls which requires a full CAD as he needs to be warlord, or do you take BA allies solely for one SPriest and only one troops, which could be Cassor in a pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Are those troop units from somewhere other than the Codex? Or did I just miss them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 They're from the Shield of Baal Deathstorm Datasheets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Personally I'm a big fan of Cassor. He's a Dread but also listed as having the character rule. Cast Quickening on him for the chance of 9 str10 ap2 initiative 7 attacks on the charge with Shred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3904927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If you really believe deep striking is the best way to play GK... Well considering the Nemesis Strikeforce gives us the best way of doing it outside of Deathwing (who are overpriced and hardly seen), yeah. I don't Deepstrike Dreadknights though. Me? I keep my Termies in Landraiders and Shunt teleporting units forward at the right time... 450pts for five dudes and a transport everyone has been countering since 5th edition? Nah. Shunting is fine, I do it with Dreadknights and Interceptors, but you need to put other units in the enemy's face early to help them. Otherwise, your Shunting vanguard gets destroyed, then your follow up gets nuked as well. Putting your entire army into enemy lines Turn 1 is much more powerful. To be blunt, your typical Grey Knights unit simply doesn't have the firepower to make an initial splash when deepstriking. Psycannons do good work I've found, especially if you focus fire. Storm bolters are okay. But you are correct that Dreadknights do the vast bulk of our shooting nowadays. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3905114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Drop Pods. Don't Deep trike without them! (Or the new angel wing...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3905261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Actually, I like NSF because my Gate-Bomb can run and shoot upon arrival. Got the love Rites! SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3905767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Drop Pods. Don't Deep trike without them! (Or the new angel wing...) I'm still on the fence about Allies. Also Terminators don't need drop pods. Actually, I like NSF because my Gate-Bomb can run and shoot upon arrival. Got the love Rites! Especially considering you can bring in Allied servo-skulls or Shunt some teleport homers into position prior, to give you a solid launch position. I'm hoping as time goes on we will find more ways to use 'Rites' cleverly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300229-new-ba-as-allies/page/5/#findComment-3906175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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