malorn24 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I have been listening to Galaxy in Flames and a thought just occurred to me. Why was Lucius even selected to be part of the First Wave (the ones that would not follow Horus)? His entire story strikes me as one that would have followed Fulgrim where ever he led because of his own vanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I always assumed because of his closeness with tarvitz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Because he is such big a prick even fulgrim didn't want him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 As Tezdal has said plus I think some of Legion high command prob wanted rid of him. I woulda done the same thing! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomanyprojects Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 His association with Tarvitz is the most likely explanation. They were old associates and it makes the most sense that that is what condemned him. Plus, from a writers point of view, it gives a reason for the bad guys to win without the good guys losing face when he betrays them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 It just seems too easy of a way to have the traitors win. it speeds up things too much and it has the whole feel of the movie "300". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I always assumed because of his closeness with tarvitz. It's not even really an assumption, he even says during the story that he's there primarily because of his association with Tarvitz. I also imagine that, with the Emperor's Children being as ego-centric as they are at that point, there was plenty of influence of internal politics and favour on the choices for the Isstvan III betrayal. If there was someone Eidolon or some other higher-up didn't like, chances are they'd get sent down. I kinda feel the opposite way about Lucius in there actually: that his impact wasn't significant enough. It's described that even after he betrays the survivors it's a fierce battle, and then they just bring the Dies Irae in anyway (which in turns make me wonder why it's been sitting around for so long). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 It's described that even after he betrays the survivors it's a fierce battle, and then they just bring the Dies Irae in anyway (which in turns make me wonder why it's been sitting around for so long). Wasn't the Irae involved in its own internal power struggle for an undetermined length of time during the treachery? Or you could use the FW explanation that the storms whipped up by the Virus bombing and inferno prevented the use of air power and heavy gear like Titans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 It's described that even after he betrays the survivors it's a fierce battle, and then they just bring the Dies Irae in anyway (which in turns make me wonder why it's been sitting around for so long).Wasn't the Irae involved in its own internal power struggle for an undetermined length of time during the treachery? Or you could use the FW explanation that the storms whipped up by the Virus bombing and inferno prevented the use of air power and heavy gear like Titans. There is a brief struggle, but from what we see in the book it's only really between three individuals and it's over as soon as it starts. The FW explanation could work, I guess, though it still bugs me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 When I read the book, I thought Lucius was there for Loken. The swordsman who bested Lucius. It must have erked him that there was someone better than him and he needed the rematch to prove it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3885928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMagnus Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 If I recall correctly, one of Fulgrims Lord Commanders, Eidolon, quite literally hated Lucius and convinced Fulgrim that he would not support their cause. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Wasn't the Dies Irae occupied with the Death Guard before assaulting the Emperor's Children? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Iirc lucius was infuriated that he was considered to be a loyalist and he would have gladly been fighting loyalists from the start but his friendship/rivalry with tarvitz as already mentioned was the only reason he went down Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "Send those we cannot trust. Oh, and the utter douches" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Like others have said, I'd have sent Lucius down. And Erebus. I hate Erebus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Probably a combination of:Closeness to Tarvitz Mutual hatred with Eidolon which comes through even more clearly in later stories. He's obnoxious even for the III legion. Remember, the loyalists didn't know that was why they were being sent. The primarchs couldn't literally pick and choose on an individual basis. They picked companies and squads based on expected overall loyalty. I'm sure that amongst those companies not sent there were loyalist individuals who were murdered by their comrades and amongst the loyalist first wave there were those who would have been willing traitors who had to be sacrificed to sell the deception. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I always assumed because of his closeness with tarvitz.Which would be ironic since Tarvitz was picked to stay behind while Lucius was not. I think McNeill puts some reasoning in A Reflection Crack'd, but I don't remember what it was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Another side is that loads of people got sent down who might have been loyal to Horus but no chances were taken. Was is Daar in Betrayal where he was a bit of a nutter but got sent any way and became the Headtaker/hunter? 10,000s of guys got sent down. Lucius was a bit part player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Which would be ironic since Tarvitz was picked to stay behind while Lucius was not. No, Tarvitz was selected for the drop. He asked Rylanor for reassignment because he suspected something was wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Don't forget gentlemen that in Betrayal it says that Fulgrim had kind of lost the plot and selected lots of marines for the first wave that would have followed him anyway, so that could no doubt factor in. With Lucius in particular though it's Tarvitz/High Command not liking him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3886676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 It's described that even after he betrays the survivors it's a fierce battle, and then they just bring the Dies Irae in anyway (which in turns make me wonder why it's been sitting around for so long).Wasn't the Irae involved in its own internal power struggle for an undetermined length of time during the treachery? Or you could use the FW explanation that the storms whipped up by the Virus bombing and inferno prevented the use of air power and heavy gear like Titans. There is a brief struggle, but from what we see in the book it's only really between three individuals and it's over as soon as it starts. The FW explanation could work, I guess, though it still bugs me. It's a brief struggle, but it still leaves them a man short to operate the Titan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3887168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Lucius was a sublime swordsman but he had enemies in the III Legion. Remember that the III Legion force sent to Isstvan III was led by Eidolon, not Fulgrim himself. Eidolon disliked (and/or was jealous of) Lucius. There was also the matter of Lucius's friendship with Tarvitz. As far as Eidolon was concerned, it was one stone, two birds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3891116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Bit of a res, but I'm listening to the Fulgrim audio book right now and came across this bit: [following the Emperor's Children's assault on DS191, which takes place after Fulgrim has secretly joined Horus] 'My lord,' pressed Vespasian, 'why were captains Vairosean and Kaesoron held back from supporting Captain Demeter? But for the intervention of Tarvitz and Lucius, Solomon's men would be dead.' 'Tarvitz and Lucius saved Captain Demeter?' asked Fulgrim, and Vespasian was shocked to see a hint of annoyance surface on Fulgrim's face. 'How...courageous of them.' This was probably another factor in Lucius being sent to die on Isstvan III: he had angered Fulgrim and inadvertently sided himself with those too staunchly loyal to be swayed into rebellion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3915310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Why do people assume Graham McNeil actually thinks this out? His books are littered with inconsistencies so much (The Outcast Dead and Vengeful Spirit notably) that they release another book to answer those questions (often unsatisfactorily). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3915849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 From a storytelling perspective, its a fantastic twist that plays off our existing assumptions about the setting and the characters that populate it. As readers, we enter with knowledge of how the Heresy ends, which makes writing that period a place without a lot of suspense unless you shake up the reader's expectations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300243-why-is-lucius-even-there/#findComment-3916855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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