Ulrock Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 So I'm working on an 1850 list and I am really struggling against Tyranids and Tau. I have only won two games in past several months and I am relatively new to the game where my opponents are big tourney guys. So as you can see I need some help in creating a balanced list. These are the models I have : 1 knight 1 avenger strike fighter 1 leman russ 2 demolisher 2 wyverns 1 vanquished 1 executioners 5 chimeras 100 infantry w/ commands 40 grenadiers(veterans) 6 lascannons 3 sentinals I usually run a mix of armour, vets and infantry but would it be better to either concentrate on infantry heavy or armour heavy instead of a mixed bag? If running mech heavy should I take pask as warlord and a company command? Should I just drop company? How many vet squads is enough? 3? 4? Or minimum? Would 1 avenger and 1 vendetta be good for anti air and anti armour? Is that a bad idea for relYing on flyers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 What sort of particulars are you having difficulty with from the nids? For example MCs, hordes etc. Hellhounds and Eradicators will make mincemeat out of the gribbles, the remaining survivors (if there are any) can be dealt with by your trooper lasguns and flamers. I think a mix would be better as you can't mount the biggest guns on infantry and maybe the Knight could be a great counter assault unit? Wyverns will of course be fantastic, and a Vendetta will make for a good AA and anti-MC unit so they are both good additions. Tau and nids are quite different in how they work so you won't be able to build a list that counters both perfectly so instead it is better to play to your strengths. I'd recommend keeping units cheap and numerous, making the most out of the relatively low upgrade costs required to make Guard units effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3886448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrock Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 So your more of an advocate for infantry formations? The biggest problem I had was MCs and Flyers. This was our first game with them and he jinked most of game and trI ed to keep them within range of the venomthrope so he gained aeditions to his cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3886625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Within reason, yes. Troopers can be numerous for a pretty low price and that's a great way to add durability to your list but they can't do the heavy lifting. They can handle the smaller nids and protect your tanks which can focus on the bigger ones. Once he jinks then he loses much of his effectiveness, so you could ignore it after that? For the Venomthrope focus on killing it to remove the bonuses - if he wants to concentrate on cover saves then Guard have plenty of toys to counter that. Even if you didn't use Eradicators and Hellhounds you could drop some artillery shells on him to reduce the cover save. Some accurate Wyvern fire could drown it in wounds too. Hopefully someone is more experienced in fighting nids, or perhaps collects them so they can provide some more detailed analysis and advice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3886635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatmandoo Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Most of the big xenos have no better than 3+ saves. So Missiles instead of Auto cannon on HWT with Ignores cover will do some damage. They suffer with ranged firepower so the longer you keep it the better. A Punisher will do good but it means the nids are getting rather close when that is in range. Venomthropes should be a massive priority no.1 and will drop yo one bad save so long as it is S8 and above due to being T4. Vendetta and the avenger will do good against the flying MC too. If you use fortifications, a AC or LC will do great against them too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3886662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrock Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Is it a necessity to have a flyer? Will one hydra do with the steel host for an all comers list? Which brings more dakka a avenger strike fighter or 2 wyverns? I'm debating on fitting the fighter in but if the hydra will do or they are not a game changer then I'm sticking with the wyverns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hmmm...mech guard vs nids and tau... Well, I've never had problems with nidz when playing mech guard. I would definitely recommend Pask in a vanquisher with a hull lascannon and a stock leman russ wingman. That's consistently gotten me 3 T6 wounds per turn from long range. Then definitely take the demolishers as heavies, and the pair of wyverns in the last heavy slot. Then fill up with autocannon veterans in chimeras...eight shots per chimmy per turn grinds a lotta wounds off of monsters! As for tau, well, again, I think mech is a good way to go...but what exactly are you facing? Longstrike is kinda scary, but if you take pasquisher with a wingman, he wins that fight as long as the wingman is closer to the tau. Tau have a really tough time with AV14, so the demolishers should be ruling the battlefield, and the wyverns should have a field day with anything up to and including crisis suits...AV12 is killable for tau, but spammed AV12 is problematic, and AV12 is still better than T3, no? I wouldn't go with fleiers because of the tau threat...but maybe a pair of lascannon vengeance weapon batteries? 75 points appiece for AV14 buildings with 2 long range twinlinked skyfire BS2 lascannons each...That should scare the pants off of fliers, and if they're busy jinking, how dangerous are they? /edit/ Oh, yeah...the avenger is a bad mama jama, but it's too fragile for me in regular games. I only field mine with my sisters, and then that's only really for fluff. With a pair of missile launchers, it should shred monstrous creatures, but tau shoot down fliers with impunity, and it's an especially fragile flier, so I'd leave that at home. I love the idea of deepstriking it to get rear armor shots against a knight (muahahahaha), but other than that, meh. The best thing I ever did with it was in APOC, I deepstruck Belial with ten termies on turn one, popping the "you can't target this unit with shooting" asset and unleashing four kraks from a CML, then on turn two, used Belial's deestrike beacon to bring in a pair of typhoons and the avenger without scatter...scratch one warhound! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PureFodder Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If you purchase a priest to go with them, a 50 man conscript squad can bayonet its way through almost any Nid unit in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Personal.ly I am building my lists around causing as many wounds as possible OR good anti armour ie lascannons, melta guns. So Wyverns, Punishers, flamers, Multilasers, Heavy Bolters etc. OR Sentinel Lascannons, Vendettas, Lascannons on above Punishers, melta vets. This way you are trying to negate cover saves armour saves etc and just throwing so many dice that even vs good armour saves those 1s and 2s appear often enough to take models off the board. Guard seem quite good at this approach with cheap tanks that come with good weapons plus the command squads. I think Exterminators and Wyverns really are our two best units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If your problem is nids then fire saturation is your solution. Avoid Veterans, except with Plasmaguns, and take platoons in Chimeras (two min platoons and their rides with one command in a flyer.) Give them all a special and heavy. Consider flamers, unless they're packing a bunch of FMCs, then you want any of the others. On your turn you can snap fire the whole army from under the Hive Tyrant and might even bring it down. Don't worry about Plasmaguns killing your own men, we're IG and casualties just mean more room in the ride. As far as tanks, really consider a Pask Punisher. I'm normally more of the executioner type but nids spend too much time in the skies and the punisher cannon does sexy snap firing. Hellhounds, other Russes, and Wyverns are all great at taking out ground forces. Hit Venonthropes first with Wyverns and then have your other tanks follow up. Field your executioner to smite MCs (any Plasmaguns on troopers help here too.) If you've got the men and points, consider a conscript squad with priest to chump block any quick enemies that may try to take your tanks out early. A make unit with a priest is only seven quarters, so losing them isn't too big a lose, especially since they'll have taken out something by the time they died. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrock Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Would it be more effective to have Pask in a vanquisher? I have never tried that. I tend to keep him in a punisher but with the steel host all tanks within 12" get the preferred enemy. So Punisher may nto be a must have with pask any guy with Punisher would be OK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 What is this steel host? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrock Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 It's a formation in red waaagh! Consist of : 1 tank commander w/ side kick 3 squadrons of leman russ (1-3 each) 1 hydra Any vehicle from formation within 12" of tank commander has preferred enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Ah ok, thats cool, didnt know about that. Think I would still just take pask as his 40point tax is less than the hydra tax. Also 4 units of leman russ tanks is maybe a bit OTT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrock Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Yeah bare minimum it's 5 tanks but I figured that you would need some AA. Would a flyer be better than simply a hydra? My thing is the I am always pressed hard for the heavy slots. So the steel host frees those up for wyverns and let's me keep my tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3887944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The Vanquisher isn't a bad idea in general but against 'nids, and they seem to be your primary concern, they're just this side of useless. Now regarding the Steel Host, I love the Steel Host. Whoever said that five Leman Russ is over the top needs to GET OUT OF THIS FORUM NOW! Clearly you do not belong in the Imperial Guard. Try the space marines, they don't appreciate what real armor can do so I'm sure you'll fit right in. What I hate about the Steel Host is the Hydra, because screw Hydras (has become my mantra lately.) Despite that, Preferred Enemy shouldn't be why you're taking Pask unless you're taking an Executioner. That Warlord trait is fairly reliably rolled for any tank commander. Pask is for Crack Shot and the weapon bonuses. In the case of the the Punisher, Rending. That is a weapon that will reliably get three hits (without PE) snap firing against FMCs and that means 1/2 a rend per shooting. Add in a second tank (maybe another Punisher), and sponson/hull weapons, and you're looking a unit that can reliably do serious damage, if not kill outright, a flyrant. The main gun should never fail to do at least two wounds to just about any MCs. Vanquishers, on the other turret, will only do one wound at most against anything that isn't a tank. AP2 means it isn't even that good against the tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3888472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Yeah whoever said that needs to get out now! Who was it again? ;) I guess it depends on points values for the game. For me wyverns are much better investment and you get 2 for the price of one leman Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3888549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherthefallenangel Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Have you considered using IA1 2ed? A little more points but beast hunter shells! They kill big bugs and riptides fast. Russes and (my new fave) thunderers as troops. It has the old 5th ed hydras and vendettas. Ordinance batteries. Basically all the cool stuff we had before 7th ed. When we were IG not AM. Ive been taking as an allie this around 500pts without the vulture. Hq> Command vanquisher Co-axciel heavy stubber, lascannon, beasthunter shells, and camo net Troops> Thunderer Heavy stubber Thunderer Heavy stubber Fast>(note- great against nids. Dies fast against tau.) Vulture gunship Twin Punisher cannon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300261-help-creating-a-mech-guard-list/#findComment-3888620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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