Raphen [SPOILERS]

[Hillslam]

Not really a TT topic but was anyone else bummed to learn Raphen had succumbed to the Black Rage and has been inducted into the Death Company? And then dies on Asphodex in Deathstorm.

 

I kinda liked that guy from the books.
 

[ServoBadger]

The character in the Swallow books is Rafen - is it confirmed anywhere that they're one and the same?

[Hillslam]

Oooooh thats right!

 

Ok I'll hold onto that in my fluff loving mind.   RAFEN LIVES!

 

 

 

EDIT:  Oh and yeah too bad about Raphen. Sad....    ....

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Honestly they could wipe the whole catalogue of James Swallow's catastrophic writing for the Blood Angels from existence and the chapter would be better for it, IMHO.

[Crimson Devil]

Hyperbole much? They aren't that bad.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Hyperbole much? They aren't that bad.

To me, they are. I know, it's harsh.

[ElectricPaladin]

Hyperbole much? They aren't that bad.

 

I'd go so far as to say that they are quite good. I mean, they aren't brilliant, but I don't think that they are any worse than anything else. No one has ever been able to articulate to me why the Blood Angels books are so bad.

 

I do agree that the second omnibus isn't quite as good as the first, though.

[Valkyrion]

Worst books ever apart from Rynn's World. 

 

Really.

 

(IMO, of course)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Hyperbole much? They aren't that bad.

I'd go so far as to say that they are quite good. I mean, they aren't brilliant, but I don't think that they are any worse than anything else. No one has ever been able to articulate to me why the Blood Angels books are so bad.

 

I do agree that the second omnibus isn't quite as good as the first, though.

The best I can figure from the actually coherent words, is that the major issues are the civil war and then asking the Successors for tribute recruits.

 

Now, if it was Fear To Tread, I would certainly have quite a bit more leeway considering the quality of that book, but when it comes to the series, it pretty much is a clash of views.

 

Which in this specific corner of the market makes all the difference.

[Blindhamster]

there are just wild fluff innacuracies is all (there is a point where thousands (plural) of blood angels are shooting at eachother.

 

This giant schism and Dante himself doesn't show up to see Sanguinius encarnate? doesnt make sense.

 

That being said, the rage that takes hold of everyone was nice as it kind of nods back to the events on signus.

 

The stories themselves arent bad really, they just make the blood angels come across as very easily duped... multiple times, the sanguinius reborn arc has some plausability to it as well... it's fair to expect all blood angels would love to have their sire return, and there is apparently a prophesy of just that. So fair enough. But Fabius Bile... on Baal? without anyone knowing? come on... (I did like the concept that the priests are potentially so obsessed with curing the taint they will go to any length to do so - even disobeying the chapter master)

 

To be honest I actually dont hate them as much as I used to, with a new print to fix the numbers (perhaps Mephiston could have been backed up by 5 companies of blood angels? that are then divided (along with those already on the world) in loyalty to the apparent sanguinius reborn and to the lord of death?

[Kol Saresk]

Well, when the first two were originally written, it was back when BL was known for..... "Taking liberties" and "creative licensing". So at that point I usually just go and pick up a copy of Dawn of War or Warrior Brood or Path of the Eldar and go *ahem*. Because it could have been worse.

[Blindhamster]

true enough Kol :)

 

I'd still like to see them go back and 'fix' stuff like that in books still on sale.

[Kol Saresk]

true enough Kol :)

 

I'd still like to see them go back and 'fix' stuff like that in books still on sale.

Yeah, would have been nice if they had done it when they reprinted it all fir the omnibuses.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Aside from Swallow's TERRIBLE prose, you know who I love to see the Blood Angels fight?  Blood Angels.  

 

(OK, I'll stop.)

[Kol Saresk]

I'm working on that. Not BA vs BA per se, more like Sons of Sanguinius vs Sons of Sanguinius. And I do declare I have a workable idea, if I do say so myself.

[ElectricPaladin]

Huh. Weird. I didn't think any of those things were unfluffy at all. I thought that Dante not showing up to see "Sanguinius reborn" was very much a shrewd political move. By delaying "seeing for himself," but sending someone he trusted, he was giving himself more room to maneuver. He knew that once he'd met Arkio (did I get that name right?), he'd have to or get off the pot, as the poet said. It would be a lot easier for him to say "Mephiston was wrong," then for him to admit "I was wrong." I thought that the fallen Inquisitor's plot was quite clever, and the author made him work for his near-victory. And I had no problem with a set of chapters as tightly knit as the Blood Angels and (some of) their successors having a "Sons of Sanguinius Conclave" to determine what to do next. It all seemed legit to me.

And I didn't think the prose was bad at all. Certainly not inspired, but tight, with few wasted words and very consistent descriptions. It wasn't brilliant, but it was sharp and disciplined, which is the next best thing.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Huh. Weird. I didn't think any of those things were unfluffy at all. I thought that Dante not showing up to see "Sanguinius reborn" was very much a shrewd political move. By delaying "seeing for himself," but sending someone he trusted, he was giving himself more room to maneuver. He knew that once he'd met Arkio (did I get that name right?), he'd have to or get off the pot, as the poet said. It would be a lot easier for him to say "Mephiston was wrong," then for him to admit "I was wrong." I thought that the fallen Inquisitor's plot was quite clever, and the author made him work for his near-victory. And I had no problem with a set of chapters as tightly knit as the Blood Angels and (some of) their successors having a "Sons of Sanguinius Conclave" to determine what to do next. It all seemed legit to me.

And I didn't think the prose was bad at all. Certainly not inspired, but tight, with few wasted words and very consistent descriptions. It wasn't brilliant, but it was sharp and disciplined, which is the next best thing.

I just think that in the larger scheme of things I'd rather not have them wasting time writing about Blood Angels fighting each other. To me that as a basic premise is absurd, and just uninteresting. And as it's been said here, they just come off as stupid for being duped. I literally got a little of the black rage myself when I read those books.

I'm glad someone liked them, though.

[ElectricPaladin]

Huh. Weird. I didn't think any of those things were unfluffy at all. I thought that Dante not showing up to see "Sanguinius reborn" was very much a shrewd political move. By delaying "seeing for himself," but sending someone he trusted, he was giving himself more room to maneuver. He knew that once he'd met Arkio (did I get that name right?), he'd have to or get off the pot, as the poet said. It would be a lot easier for him to say "Mephiston was wrong," then for him to admit "I was wrong." I thought that the fallen Inquisitor's plot was quite clever, and the author made him work for his near-victory. And I had no problem with a set of chapters as tightly knit as the Blood Angels and (some of) their successors having a "Sons of Sanguinius Conclave" to determine what to do next. It all seemed legit to me.

And I didn't think the prose was bad at all. Certainly not inspired, but tight, with few wasted words and very consistent descriptions. It wasn't brilliant, but it was sharp and disciplined, which is the next best thing.

I just think that in the larger scheme of things I'd rather not have them wasting time writing about Blood Angels fighting each other. To me that as a basic premise is absurd, and just uninteresting. And as it's been said here, they just come off as stupid for being duped. I literally got a little of the black rage myself when I read those books.

I'm glad someone liked them, though.

Yeah... I do see your point, actually. I guess in the context of these being the only books about the Blood Angels (at least in 40k) it's kind of a shame that we only see them screwing up. And when Blood Angels and their successors have supporting roles in other chapters' novels (ie. Death of Integrity), they are generally portrayed as being problematic, over-aggressive, and semi-competent. If there were other books that also showed us the Blood Angels being awesome, it wouldn't be a problem, but... I see where you're coming from.

But then again, I enjoyed the book itself, whatever the context.

I do think that they made the Inquisitor work for it. Conning the Blood Angels wasn't a walk in the park for him, and there were a couple of junctures at which he almost got caught. I don't think that they came off as particularly stupid.

[Kol Saresk]

I think it would have been received better by the BA community at large if James Swallow didn't have the civil war wiping out a decent portion of the Chapter. I mean, any way I slice it, there is supposed to be at least three companies(three tenths of the Chapter, regardless of what numbers Swallow used), and all three are supposed to be devastated to a catastrophic degree. Heck, the Company Rafen came from originally is supposed to have been wiped out except for a handful of Blood Angels.

 

That and I imagine there is always the "As the fan, I can see it happening so I'm not sure why you can't." element to throw in as well. It's easy to say "they shouldn't have been duped" but usually that is made obvious so we the readers understand the story as it progresses. These aren't mystery novels after all.

 

But it is also a magnificent piece of writing when they can keep you from seeing the obvious. That's why I love how they did the Flash mid-season finale. Completely threw me off the trail for a bit.

[Tabgoi]

I didn't like them because the blood angels looked gullible and threw their conditioning right out the window. But it could be worse, we could be the space wolves. An inquisitor fired on their fleet and they did nothing, then landed on Fenris without permission and threatened the Fell Hand with impunity. I highly doubt even a high lord of Terra would outright threaten a ten thousand year old Marine who walked with the Primarchs. Forceful in their request sure, threaten, not if they wanted to live. There is nothing stopping them from killing you and denying everything.

[Kol Saresk]

Considering this is the same Inquisition that believes it is the holy Internal Affairs of the Imperium and none are above its station and these would be the same High Lords of Terra who have on multiple occasions tried to order Astartes Chapters around, it would very easily be believable within the setting and since the Space Wolves are who they are, it is very believable they would let the Inquisition be the chihuaha barking at the Tibetan Mountain Dog. "Go ahead and bark. You can't do jack."

[ElectricPaladin]

Considering this is the same Inquisition that believes it is the holy Internal Affairs of the Imperium and none are above its station and these would be the same High Lords of Terra who have on multiple occasions tried to order Astartes Chapters around, it would very easily be believable within the setting and since the Space Wolves are who they are, it is very believable they would let the Inquisition be the chihuaha barking at the Tibetan Mountain Dog. "Go ahead and bark. You can't do jack."

 

You and I have disagreed in the past, but I think you are absolutely correct. The Imperium is a mess. Everyone screws with each other constantly, but everyone is also trying their best to avoid an outright civil war.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, my view of the Imperium is that when it comes to the powers that be, they are very political and self-motivated. Pretty much like any modern politician, but in charge of planets and whole systems rather than a piece of land.

 

And as a result, the Space Marine Chapters have ha to adapt and become political themselves since they no longer possess the authorities they once had when they were Legions. That's why an Inquisitor can watch the victory rites of the Sons of Malice, assume it is cannibalistic worship of Chaos and then have them dispelled. Or the High lords of Terra can repeal the Tiger Claws' request for aid in rebuilding their Chapter.

 

And why the Flesh Tearers deal with the Inquisition pursuing them, but always being careful in how they deal with the overly curious.

 

I don't believe it is evil because "Chaoz is da bombz!" I believe it is evil because it is a massive collection of human beings trying to survive in a hostile galaxy and when it comes down to it, humans aren't the most compassionate beings when it comes to survival. Even the ones who are compassionate will sometimes make a deal with the devil if they think it will keep them alive.

[tylerw]

I didn't like them because the blood angels looked gullible and threw their conditioning right out the window. But it could be worse, we could be the space wolves. An inquisitor fired on their fleet and they did nothing, then landed on Fenris without permission and threatened the Fell Hand with impunity. I highly doubt even a high lord of Terra would outright threaten a ten thousand year old Marine who walked with the Primarchs. Forceful in their request sure, threaten, not if they wanted to live. There is nothing stopping them from killing you and denying everything.

I'm not sure if you have read the book, but uh, that inquisitor died about 10 minutes (reading time) later at the hands of the SW.  The GK leader who was backing his play died like... 20 minutes earlier in front of a bunch of GK when Logan instagibbed him all over them, then the SW blew away the "key" GK players in the scene, just enough to let them teleport out.

 

I'm not saying they came off as totally amazing, but SW got to kill some haters in that book.

[Brother Excedis]

I personally loved those books. I feel it is a well developed storyline that is both believable and rational in every sense. The biggest problem I've noticed is that everyone looks at this through their normal logic glasses. You guys have to remember they are highly religious almost zealots. Religion tinges everything in the Imperium. To the Blood Angels their "Jesus" was returning. Could you imagine the second coming of Christ? An unimaginable amount of people who were extreme cynics would flock. The true believers would be vindicated. Apply that here. Sanguinius is second only to the Emperor in their eyes. They WANT to believe he has returned. They live for his return. We as readers ha e a hard time because to us it is obvious what's really going on, its explained to us.

 

However I would like to see some fluff representing them as the best of the best they are. I mean come on, Horus said Sanguinius should have been warmaster, Calhar himself ceded overall command to Dante at Armageddon. Wherever they tread they are THE Angels of the Emperor. There's a frickin Imperial holiday just for Sanguinius. But the books put out don't show the majesty or the honor in refusing to give in. These troubled warriors are above their peers. They are accomplishing MORE while continuously fighting the greatest enemy of all, yourself. They just show the tragedy of giving in and the ineveitable spiral. Not the glory of the doomed warrior like the Paladin Roland and his last stand or the stand of the 300.

I apologize for the errors above, this is from my phone and I can't figure out how to go back and edit.