Prot's Helguard Formation vs. Astra Batrep: Some pics

[Prot]

Here's my list:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300061-1850-maelstrom-using-kranons-helguard-formation-help/

And his list was something very cheezy! All Astra are a cheezy lot imo, it makes no difference the list! But from memory, here's what he had at 1850pts:

Tank commander in Punisher (Very original right?)

Plasma Executioner in command tank squad above.

several Vet squads in Chimera's with melta guns and exploding briefcases.

2 Vendetta gunships

2 Wyverns

Pysker with Prescience hiding behind 3 Lascannon Sentinels

2 squads of those elite dudes.... with volley guns/melta, can't remember their names they came from that astra supplement.

The Game:

We played Maelstrom, with objectives, escalation with long table edge deployment.

+Kranon and Draznicht give a pep talk to a wack of cultists about how dying in masses is a great idea an he wishes he could join them.. but probably won't.

GAME TIME:

- I deployed my army the full 12" up from my board edge which turned out quite cramped as I had two buildings deep in my zone that while providing cover, made it quite difficult to spread out.

- He deployed deep and in the corners with his Wyverns to once corner behind buildings, his Las Sentinels and psyker deep in the other corner in a ruin, and in the middle of his back edge he placed his command tanks. Vets were on either corner as well, and a third vet/Chimera was centered with his command tanks.

+Cramped up

- I won the first turn roll and took it. My cards sucked warp farts. I couldn't accomplish anything on them, but misery loves company and his cards sucked just as bad.

- My first turn consisted of moving full out, and not much shooting, just juggling stuff and getting up the middle to the command tanks leading with Kranon's Landraider.

- Astra first turn is really going to surprise you... they stood back and shot. /sarcasm

+ Kranon moves out autobot style, Cultsists man the gun with fear in their eyes as they sense the coming onslaught. Helbrute, and Maulerfiend follow Kranon closely while the CSM rhino is not far behind.

Early Game:

- The thing about playing Astra is it's hard to get pictures of their deployment for batreps because they all hide behind junk, and basically sit on their long table edge, so unfortunately from these pics you won't see much of them...

- The fearful Cultists were right all along.. Kranon sold them some snake oil for the glory of Chaos and they got pelted without firing a shot. The Wyverns typically hit 2-3 cultists a template, x 4 templates, x 2 Wyvers = BRING IN NEW CULTISTS! We're running low!!

- The secondary squad of Cultists saw all their brothers die behind the Aegis line, so they promptly fanned out to take the same position behind the Aegis line, and take control of the quad gun... but they were partially in ruins, and rolled a 3" difficult terrain run resulting in them being short.

- The Wyverns knocked the crud out of those cultits as well. They gave up first blood like cultists are prone to do.... I had my work cut out for me.

+Krannon and Draznicht waste no time. With the Warlord trait of "Shroud" (!) The Landraider received some nice 4+ cover saves which helped immensely this game. Draznicht thought it was his fancy driving skills, but Kranon knew better.

- Kranon sends everything ahead full bore, The Terminators deep strike... and... scatter 12" off the table back into reserves! D'oh!!! Well it's the Raptors turn! They decide to drop in and try to fry the Psyker who is effectively twin linking the Las Sentinels.... they deep strike... scatter 10" off the table edge! D'oh!!!

- Baledrake arrives.... The Maulerfiend takes off in a frenzy hoping to get some action....the Landraider fires off shots taking a hullpoint off of a Chimera, meanwhile the Heguard Formation is about to come into effect.... He fails a fear test for close combat and a squad of ordinary CSM with the Dark Apostle roast the Vets in front of them in CC.

- The Astra Shooting is largely centred on the Landraider and since Kranon and Chosen are inside, the Vendetta is reduced Ballistic Skill! This pays off... and again in the following turn. Vets fire away at Kranon's disembarked squad and I counted at least 5 rolls of 3 which would have hit if not for the "Phantasm" in effect.

- My opponent scored first but I ran up a few points based on destroying units, and getting an objective. We're tied at 3-3 now.

MID Game:

- A big moment. Kranon disembarks with Draznicht's Chosen and gets off a big assault on a squad of vets who fail their fear test. I'm hitting on 3's with Preferred enemy, he's hitting on 5's. Needless to say, Kranon's sword drank deep of the puny humans. He was now strength 6, AP2. (one or two kills short of instadeath).

- The Command tank squad starts to panic... they pull back, but it's too late Kranon has ordered the Maulerfiend into the Plasma Executioner and it dry humps the tank to pieces. Then Kranon and his last remaining Chosen rush the Command tank itself.

+ Kranon and remaining Crimson Slaughter look for a tailpipe to kick in on the Prask's Punisher.

Late Game:

- With slay the warlord, I am tied again at 5-5 but the Astra forces are dwindling. After killing the command tanks, Kranon and friends go for the sentinels in the corner, They are the last heavy threat on the board aside from the Vendetta's.

- The baledrake goes into glide mode after roasting a few deep striking squads that wanted an objective on my end of the table. Meanwhile the Helbrute took a horrible beating, and somehow survived with 1 hullpoint. His crazed roll had him charge the last chimera and blow it up. But the contents of the Chimera fell out and melta'd the poor bugger into slag metal.

The Baledrake flies over, and returns the favour roasting a deepstrike squad, and a part of the Chimera squad.

+ Ariel view of the wingless drake (long story) hovering in ruins over the Helbrute's charred corpse, as he roasts some Astra for supper.

- The game definitely swings in my favour at this point. Kranon is on fire now, and the numbers are disappearing. The Terminators came in finally and finished off some Vets and then turned to take on the Wyverns. Similarly the Raptors came in, and were attacking the Wyverns as well.

- Some of my CSM and the DA were moving in on the Sentinels now, as was Kranon's haggard squad of remaining Chosen (the landraider was blown up finally by a Vendetta.

+ Kranon makes a thin conga line to claim the far board edge for the Crimson Slaughter.

- I had a few games that night so we decided to call it at that point. I felt the game was no well in hand as he only had a couple of units that were surviving and I felt about 1-2 turns away from owning 80% of the board.

- My opponent agreed.. .it was pretty late at this point, and I don't think there's anything he could have done to turn it around.

[WarriorFish]

All Astra are a cheezy lot imo, it makes no difference the list!

Is that so? I take it you won't be visiting the barracks any more then... Perhaps you should put the flying turkey back in the box along with your conga drums before you start throwing accusations of cheese around

[Prot]

I'll have you know the baledrake is a fine feathered friend with a bad reputation just because of a little acid reflux condition!

 

I can't believe you have it on for such a harmless endangered species!

[ThatOneMarshal]

I like the bat-rep, very entertaining. In general I've been finding all of your bat reps pretty entertaining. ( even the ultras). Keep up the good work! Also the imperial guard looks pretty a typical I wouldn't call it ultra cheesy. I would call it that when he pulls out the psykers trying to cast invisibility on pask.

[Sheesh Mode]

In my experience Prot, Imperial Guard need to use everything they can get. On an individual basis a lone guardsman is barely notable beyond a body for scoring objectives, blocking assaults, and giving off a shot or two with his rifle. It is when the Guard utilize the vast number of support options to enhance their core models that they truly begin to shine. 

 

Furthermore, guard armies are a great example as to why - in my opinion - assault is largely balanced. Imperial Guard can easily lose half of their army, if not more, to a couple of deathstars. They simply are not durable enough to handle even a handful of marines, nor put out enough small arms fire to stop them from continuing to butcher other models. (If they get to shoot the marines between Assault Phases at all.)

 

----

 

In terms of the battle report I am impressed by your success despite the ridiculous deepstrike roles. It seems clear you took advantage of his thin line and hit him hardest where it counted: the wyverns. Though I am curious how you managed to put a 4+ cover save on your landraider, I was not aware the Crimson Slaughter phantasm rule was granted to vehicles as well. 

 

In regards to the cultists: I suggest that you keep them spread out more in the future whenever wyverns are in play. It is almost guaranteed the squad will disappear if an enemy wyvern can hit them as a packed blob. Though, it is worth noting that had you fielded the Raptor squad and marched them behind the Landraider the cultists could, hypothetically, provide a distraction. Certainly forcing your opponent to pick targets due to target saturation is a viable strategy, and in terms of the Raptors means your army is not nearly as beholden to the deepstrike rolls. 

 

In regards to your list; in my experience chosen are best equipped for a single purpose which could be any number of tasks ranging from tank hunting, hoard clearing, or anti-elite. It depends on their marks and the weapons they are equipped with. I find your chosen oddly equipped as they appear more anti-walker, anti-elite centric what with the meltas, axe, and fist. Where as Kranon is a solid anti marine equivalent character capable of tanking challenges or thinning out hoards, but unsuited to facing models with 2+ saves or armor values unlike those whom he accompanies. 

 

 

I look forward to seeing more batreps from you in the future. 

[Prot]

Thanks very much for reading and responding guys!

 

I like the bat-rep, very entertaining. In general I've been finding all of your bat reps pretty entertaining. ( even the ultras). Keep up the good work! Also the imperial guard looks pretty a typical I wouldn't call it ultra cheesy. I would call it that when he pulls out the psykers trying to cast invisibility on pask.

 

 

I'm sorry, I should have been much more clear in saying Astra are 'cheezy' this is just a joke, as my and my friends rib each other pretty good when we play. I often think that if someone didn't know better and they were witnessing this they might think we actually dislike each other as it can get pretty good with the trash talking. lol 

 

We have a great time, but make no mistake, we're trying to kick each others's family jewels off during the game, but all is in good spirit and fairness. :)

 

Thanks for reading the batrep, and yea, that Astra player started out 7th with the Deathstrikes and it was sooo ridiculous he pulled them out of his list. They were ending games in one turn basically. So that's an example in that we do have some form of conscientious play. :)

 

I appreciate the compliment on the batreps. As you know they are time consuming and I'm kind of burning out on them as I am trying to do them for 3-4 armies I play weekly: DA, Ultra, Chaos, Necrons. Taking notes, editing pics... it's fun, but time consuming.

 

 

In my experience Prot, Imperial Guard need to use everything they can get. On an individual basis a lone guardsman is barely notable beyond a body for scoring objectives, blocking assaults, and giving off a shot or two with his rifle. It is when the Guard utilize the vast number of support options to enhance their core models that they truly begin to shine. 

 

Furthermore, guard armies are a great example as to why - in my opinion - assault is largely balanced. Imperial Guard can easily lose half of their army, if not more, to a couple of deathstars. They simply are not durable enough to handle even a handful of marines, nor put out enough small arms fire to stop them from continuing to butcher other models. (If they get to shoot the marines between Assault Phases at all.)

 

 

 

Totally agree. See above... I was being a bit facetious. And a good Astra player definitely makes you pay for a wrong move.

 

 

----

 

In terms of the battle report I am impressed by your success despite the ridiculous deepstrike roles. It seems clear you took advantage of his thin line and hit him hardest where it counted: the wyverns. Though I am curious how you managed to put a 4+ cover save on your landraider, I was not aware the Crimson Slaughter phantasm rule was granted to vehicles as well. 

 

 

 

The 4+ cover on the Landraider came from Kranon  rolling on the Warlord Trait table and getting Shroud. As he was in the Landraider, it was conferred to the landraider (this is how I've always done it when I got the cover save bonus with my Possessed too.)

 

 

In regards to the cultists: I suggest that you keep them spread out more in the future whenever wyverns are in play. It is almost guaranteed the squad will disappear if an enemy wyvern can hit them as a packed blob. Though, it is worth noting that had you fielded the Raptor squad and marched them behind the Landraider the cultists could, hypothetically, provide a distraction. Certainly forcing your opponent to pick targets due to target saturation is a viable strategy, and in terms of the Raptors means your army is not nearly as beholden to the deepstrike rolls. 

 

 

 

Ugh... okay here's the thing with Wyverns, and the cultists. They were spread out in a very thin red line, right behind the Aegis. But he re-rolls the scattter +2D6 if he wants. So with a slight scatter if any at all he is pretty much guaranteed to hit approximately 3 Cultists per template x 4 templates, x 2 Wyverns is approximately 20+ wounds WITH re-roll to wound, no saves of any kind on these dudes results in a vaped squad. 

 

I have gone through this at length with my opponents time and time again. Besides paying for a bunker, a firestorm redoubt, or at least a bastion, I cannot keep these guys alive against a Wyvern... no matter what I try. The thing is he's only hitting the same 3-4 models over and over and over, but the wounds cover the whole squad. It's extremely hard to defend against. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Kranon explains to these guys that this is what's expected of them, and thus they ride the short bus to every battle.  ;)

 

 

In regards to your list; in my experience chosen are best equipped for a single purpose which could be any number of tasks ranging from tank hunting, hoard clearing, or anti-elite. It depends on their marks and the weapons they are equipped with. I find your chosen oddly equipped as they appear more anti-walker, anti-elite centric what with the meltas, axe, and fist. Where as Kranon is a solid anti marine equivalent character capable of tanking challenges or thinning out hoards, but unsuited to facing models with 2+ saves or armor values unlike those whom he accompanies. 

 

 

I look forward to seeing more batreps from you in the future. 

 

I am not disagreeing with your assesment of my Chosen load out. I can't explain why, but this is my favorite designation for the squad.  There is never a scenario where they can't be useful. I know it is a multi-role load out in a game where people seem to prefer mono-role units, but I love it. 

 

The squad, and "preferred enemy" within this squad is fantastic against mech lists, infantry lists, monstrous creatures, marines, etc. I've tried mono-chosen and usually regret it... I suppose it comes down to playstyle. 

 

Kranon protects Draznicht from challenges to keep Preferred Enemy -OR- Draznicht protects Kranon from instant death... until Kranon gets the Soul Siphon sword powered up, and then he is extremely potent against just about anything in the game.

 

Take this game: Just enough melta to hop out and whoop some armour, the fist punches through a tail pipe. I have enough double armed /bolter chosen to lay a beatdown on the guard, and having preferred enemy + a failed Fear test from the Vets powered up Kranon's sword in almost one turn of cc. (+2 strength, (strength 7 rushing in) and AP2 sword)! Kranon was going to leave the squad if necessary but it never became an issue.

 

As a side note to the configuration of the chosen, the formation is set up (imho) to give Kranon that slot with the chosen, and especially Draznicht, in the Landraider. It just seems to fit together. 

 

This all being said, I completely understand the logic in mono-roled chosen in many a chaos list. I'm just weird that way and it trickles through my whole army I just like extreme flexability. Even my termicide squads feature  mixed plas/melta which is a big no-no for many players. :)

 

Thanks for reading... I really appreciate it and I always consider the advice.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I wanted to revisit this but had to write up a DA batrep which wasn't as successful as this one! But I wanted to touch on what I would do differently now that I've played the formation:

 

+ 1 : Big change to the secondary attachment. As mentioned in other threads, I've never honesntly been big on multi detachments in Maelstrom. So this is different for me. Now that I understand the detachment rules a bit, I think to maximize my choices OUTSIDE of the formation I would make the formation the 'secondary detachment' (?) and use a more 'traditional' force org for the primary so I could use multi heavies like multi maulerfiiends/oblits,etc. The only drawback being this would mean Kranon cannot be my warlord. This may call for a Nurgle DP, or even a Balestar Sorc? Just  something to think about.

 

+ 2: Raptors. I had these guys configed poorly. Small squad? Sure, but not with dual flamers. In this list infantry isn't the big issue, but armour is. I should have gone dual melta. I'd definitely change that.

 

+ 3: I'd LOVE to fit the Helbrute formation in here. Man it would be sweet in this list, with forcing phatasm (reduced BS) while having 3 Helbrutes deep strike in!

 

+ 4: Remembering fear. Fear is useless against so many foes, however when it CAN be used, it is fantastic when it kicks in and the formation encourages a fear failure which makes Draznicht+ Kranon much tougher instantly.

 

+ 5: Fast attack: The Heldrake is always a good fast attack choice, but I have to wonder in this list if 2-3 Nurgle Spawn would have been better? Thoughts?

 

Definitely some changes need to make to the formation but things I did like was:

 

+ Chosen + Draznicht + Kranon + Landraider + Phantasm = wow. Almost impossible to NOT get the formation to work because you have 3 of the units from it in one vehicle! Perhaps I should consider changing the chosen around but this cluster of units forces you to be aggressive or else the formation is useless ,but it has a high potential pay off if you can get it to work.

 

+ Termicide. Hard to go wrong with it really. But I wonder if playing with this squad size to get the benefit of  using THEM in the landraider, and buying the Chosen a Rhino (BONUS to the Formation as you're adding a unit) might be a better idea??????

 

Conclusion:

 

Unlike the Dark Angel version of the formation, this one is actually usable. No doubt the meat of it is the-1 BS, but the fear is a nice little bonus if you can get it off.  But I instantly learned during this game the formation is fueled by being super aggressive. You gotta get close, and close combat is geared for this kind of aggressive play, and even the cultists might have been better off flying forwards..... Maelstrom does force you to keep your back lines tight though. But the heart of this formation plays very... 'chaosy' or 'Crimson Slaughter-like'.  I think you guys should give it a shot and put you're own twist on it!

[RolandTHTG]

Report sounds good, and is definitely tempting me to run it.

I will point out that even if you add a Combined Arms detachment, you can still have Kranon as your warlord. Page 124 (big book), You must nominate a character as your warlord, but there is no restriction which detachment it it from.

[ The allied detachment can not have the warord, but this is only applies to that specific detachment, not to all non-combined arms detachments]

[Prot]

Ah, okay thanks for the clarification. That's great news.

 

I'm seriously thinking of tweaking this list and running with it for a while.

 

I have to say although this edition is largely shooty based, I still strongly believe Maelstrom helps even things out because you simply can't sit in a corner and pew-pew.

 

This formation plays into that idea while reducing the effectiveness of pew-pew from the opponent. As suggested I have several areas where I can see improvement but I have to brush up on the allied rules because I think I'm missing something and I'm basically trying to create an ally attachment that allows me to get some objective secured running.

 

BTW: as a side note, one thing I decided to try in this list because of my recent experience with 'normal' tactical squads in both Ultra's and my DA is to try the Chaos Space marines, again using a mixed load out. As the requirement for bolters becomes less significant (because I want to assault and/or am getting assaulted) I start removing bolter marines and keeping the double armed guys.

 

In my game they were 'good'. I won't say great, but after a long time ignoring them, I do think they have value over breaking cultists. Now to find a proper fit for them....

 

There's a lot of variance on this formation at 1850. But not so much that you can make silly list building mistakes. I may give it another wack this week as I just had a DA and Ultra game.