Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Let's have a look: For 10 JP DC you pay 230 points. For 10 ASM with SangPriest you pay 245 DC has 3A base and +2 on charge with WS4 ASM has 2A base and +1 on charge with WS5 Both have S5 on charge, with BSD both have I5 on charge. When getting charged all DC gets is one more attack with one less WS than ASM. Both have FnP and a 3+. DC can get more special weapons, but you rarely need more than 2. DC has greater destructive potential on the charge, especially with Astorath but will have the problem of killing too quickly and having to take one whole shooting phase to the face. They are fearless though, which is nice because 3D6 falling back is a pain sometimes. However, Elite slots are highly contested. We have Fragiosos, multiple command squads and SG. So would it not be better to max out Elite with those goodies and get the choppy body count in FA, which is not that highly contested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I can't be certain until I see the codex as a whole but you've overlooked two of the most important Dc pros in my opinion. 1. Unchallengeable power fists. 2. Relentless bolters. The weight of fire before a charge often makes up for less cc attacks, and gives them a first turn use out of a pod or Jp insertion and it's great having ap2 str 9 attacks that can't be sucked into a challange and invuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 DC have almost twice the attacks, have less restrictive loadouts, are less prone to challenges, are fearless.. and going by your math they are cheaper.. I guess they are worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Cheaper, hidden power fist, fearless and you can take 15. Getting challenged with sergeant is really annoying. Maybe if you attach a Dante to the ASM, but i'm really liking DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And don't forget you can hide a number of power fists in a dc squad that's a massive boom for assaault type units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 FA has good platforms for both melta (ASM in pods) and grav (grav bikers), that slot is not as empty as it might seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Also from my understanding grav bikers are new fast attack hotness, I'm glad I'd started a bike priest a few months back as Ba bikes seem much more useful. now my problem is with priests, as with only 2 hq choices and meph, lib dreads, standard libs, and beatstick captains to consider its massively oversubscribed, I can see myself with two detachments in most games at 1750 and above. With that in mind I doubt I'd put a hq slot into buffing one assault squad alone, jinxing t5 bikers or some sanguinary guard are where my single priest is likely to go. If anything I'll end up using them in a similar role to most previous lists (bar cheap razors) they were a great unit to combat squad and harrass by dropping in with 2 flamers or 2 meltas, except now they do that much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 ASM have greater flexibility with Combat Squad and Meltas. Hm, but would you really want to run DC naked with a PF? Whe you take it to a larger scale and run DC with Lemantes or Astorath as opposed to two units of ASM. I just feel the other Elite choices being superior. And yes, I do have the codex in hand since yesterday so the math and rules are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I dont see much else except fragcannon dreads that really contest the slot, i guess it really depends on what type of list you want to run. 5ASM 2 melta in a fast rhino, or 5asm 2 melta 2 infernus pistol seems more appealing to me. I like that it's much closer now on what units to pick now. Makes it more interesting in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And yes, I do have the codex in hand since yesterday so the math and rules are right. sorry non verbal communication misunderstanding of context, I wasn't questioning your math or accuracy, just that as I haven't seen the codex as a whole I haven't got a feel for its balance. personally losing the magna grapple shot, a point of weaponskill and the (minor) increased cost of the fragioso makes them much less appealing to me as they aren't as versatile, weaker in cc, weaker versus armour and less impact out of a pod turn one. I will likely find space for at least one in a pod list or a punchy one coming off a raven. I like to have troop killing and TEQ/vehicle killing coming out of a raven if i use it as such so where as I'd have fists and axes inside and talons on the back I'm likely to have swords inside and new talons on the back. Chaplins don't feel like a good investment either. Sanguinary guard are probably in and the rest I'll have to mull over but bolter DC made it into nearly every list from the last year and only failed to make an impact once which was down to me being an idiot really as well as making no fnp rolls bolter Dc with packs could be realy sexy or i'll throw them into pods again. as for termies, they seem better at first but i'm not sure in what capacity, shooty hasn't really had much of a buff as all they're cc weapons will go at 1 still bar the sarges sword, as would thunder hammer termies, claws could be good but i'm not sure they challange the other elite slots in that department, DC cheaper and weight of attacks, SG masks jp's and improved shooting prior to the charge (they still have the nasty wrist bolters i'm assuming.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitorBlack Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I thought this thread was a troll, but once I looked at the numbers, I can definitely concede that it's definitely worthy of debate. For me, there are lots of things that make DC better. Natural FNP means the priest can't be killed to remove the buff. Being able to hide power weapons is a very powerful tool. The sheer weight of extra attacks offsets the loss of WS to make them a superior offensive unit. However, the big 'game changer' is when the priest's buff also affects an IC that wouldn't normally have FNP. Now that Dante is eternal warrior, FNP on him is insane. Also, Dante can help protect the Priest and makes up for any shortfall in offensive capability that the ASM might have over DC. Consequently, I'd definitely take ASM as Dante's bodyguard instead of DC. You can give the Priest the relic JP to give them more of a precision drop to allow the squad's meltaguns (and Dante's and the Priest's inferno pistols) better chance of Melta shots on the drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 I am not (yet) arguing that ASM are better. I just want some clarity for myself and possibly the others wondering. As for Elite slots, I will definitely run 2 Command Squads with 3 Meltas each and abuse Dante's DoA. So that is 2 Elite slots taken. I am uncertain, but the Fragioso might be worth a spin. I guess my biggest issue with DC is that the characters that work well with them bloat their cost into infinity. If you take 10 DC + Fist and 9 ASM + Fist + SG you arrive approx. at the same point cost. What I like about ASM that you can get 2 Meltas to add to their flexibility. You can still take two units of Grav Bikes, if you so desire. But granted, I do not have much experience running DC (why I made this thread) so I am not sure how many IC they need to survive the fight and how much to invest. Against me they never got past the mid-line, but I do not know any competent BA players in my city and I never face them on tournaments, just the regular hordes of xenos I need a decent hammer in my list, but I do not want to go all out DC (with two blobs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Command squads dont take up elite slots afaik, fyi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Excellent points both builds have there merits. Dante + ASM is 465 points though quite pricy and kills 8-9 MEQ on the charge. 10 DC with Astorath is 385 points 11 MEQ on the charge, thats without counting Astorath. Though getting assaulted is better with Dante as he can still reduce the attackers at init 6, plus he has hit and run. Dante DS has a nice melta alpha, but vs blasts that can be quite devestating, but they can open transports pre assault. DC/Astorath are gonna struggle with for example Rhinos needing two turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 To me, the tie breaker is the gravbikers, which can only be Fast Attack. The DC occupy Elite slots that are in slightly less demand. I'm inclined to go with DC with Astorath and Dante as my wrecking ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm going to to bet that grav bikers are going to be less popular as people get playtime with the codex. Barring some huge meta change. We can't quite do them as well as C:SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm going to to bet that grav bikers are going to be less popular as people get playtime with the codex. Barring some huge meta change. We can't quite do them as well as C:SM. BA have the advantage of being able to add fnp to grave bikes, so who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Im going for plasma bikes instead. Much better utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm more inclined to take ASM as Meltagun platforms in this edition, as opposed to melee units. But as everyone as said, having so many hidden special melee weapons with so many attacks simply has to factor into the value of the DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Command squads dont take up elite slots afaik, fyi. 3 pair of eyes failed to find anything like that. But anyway. Given that I use command squads as melta platforms, how would I build a DC hammer without bloating the cost? The rest of the list looks like this: Dante (Warlord) Captain w/ The Angel's Wings, Valor's Edge, Artificers Armour 2x CS w/ JP, 3 Meltas (Dante and Captain take one each) 2x 5 Tacs w/ Heavy Flamer in LasPlas RB Sicaran Battle Tank w/ Dozer, Schizm of Mars Possible further inclusions would be Baal Preds, ASM, Bikers or SG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 For the DC to qualify as a hammer you need a couple of hidden power weapon (at least one of them a fist) and the double rerolls which you can only get from Astorath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Do they need a tank? Or are they tough enough? I would consider Astorath + 10 DC w/ 1-2 Fists = 420-445. This borders on being too expensive in my eyes. Wouldn't SG + SP be a better option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arschbombe Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Command squads dont take up elite slots afaik, fyi. Actually, I think they do. I was looking to see if they were outside of the FOC like in the past and I saw that they are Elites. But I'm not 100% sure now that you say otherwise. The codex uses slots symbols to show where units are slotted. So nothing says HQ, it just has a skull in a circle. Elites are a cross in a circle etc. etc. Unless you've been around a long time and remember those symbols, you have to refer back to the detachment page to see what goes where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Its not specified as an elite its listed under captain hq as part of it and has no elite unit insignia, ie cross. No? Cant remember for sure.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 I think that might be a new BA gimmick now. Instead of a 0-1 HQ choice they can take multiple CS at the cost of an Elite slot and only allowed to carry 3 specials. @appiah5 - I believe you are still looking into the old one :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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