Razorbacks

[Frater Cornelius]

Let us discuss Razorbacks. Rather expensive with 85 for one with a decent weapon, but adds some mobility to tacs and has decent dakka.

I was thinking 5 Tacs w/ Heavy Flamer in a LasPlas RB.

It also gives you a good objective grabber with 24" in one turn.

 

However, they are fragile. And you need saturation to make them work.

 

So, with ASM gone from Troops and Scouts not being able to take LSS, will we see more Razors up and running? Or are they a waste of points?

[knife&fork]

TL-HF on a fast rhino hull is surprisingly nasty. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, I haven't really though of it. You save 20 points. 5 Tacs + HF in TLHF RB. You are paying 145 (150 with dozer) and offer serious anti-infantry punch (50 guardsmen, I am looking at you). Together with DC it makes for serious infantry blender.

 

But are they worth the hassle? That is the question.

[knife&fork]

I mostly used them because they were cheap with the RAS discount. 

 

Wouldn't make them a dedicated anything, they work best as a nasty surprise or end game scorer. 

[Frater Cornelius]

So keeping them cheap is the name of the game then. Any opinions on LasPlas?

Also, do they make for superior troops as opposed to Scouts? I feel scouts to be rather ineffectual without LSS.

[knife&fork]

A heavy flamer or regular flamer isn't so bad. I just wouldn't make it my dedicated anti troop unit or something like that.

I'm not a fan of las-plas myself, too many pts for AV11, but some people swear by them. 

 

 

Do you mean scouts in general or scouts in razor backs? Haven't really considered the latter. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Scouts in RB cost you precious FA slots. I mean just scouts.

 

As for LasPlas... I like the potential firepower, but I do not really like spending 85 points on a tank that will be dead if a Serpent gives it a stern look.

[Silverson]

I don't think troops in transports fits blood angels in this edition as I there to fragile, can't assault out of them and other options are better, if your using close range shooting weapons on tactical marines drop pods get you in faster to shoot, if your going cc marines (death company or sanguinary guard) then jump packs are fantastic and the majority of our special characters are solidly placed in them, then there is assault squads that can do either of those rolls and for everything else(Mephiston,th/ss terminators) there is the land raider crusader.

 

I think the same about the death company dread (compared to the other dreads), they are not bad options but other units do the same job just better.

 

Or to borrow what someone else said on these forums the other day "this is the time of jump packs"

[Frater Cornelius]

I am trying to min/max. What units gives me the best utility for minimal costs. Drop Pod tacs at their full potential clock in at around 195-220 points (depending on various upgrades). Of those 10 members, 7 do close to nothing because Bolters are rather ineffectual. After you land, you will be slow.

 

RB + 5 Tacs gives you 4 potential scorers, two of which are damn fast. I want to minimize troops selection to get more JP and bikes in there. Getting Tacs in pods, you would need to take 3 for maximum effectiveness.

 

A third option would be MSU pods. Taking 1 special and 1 combi in a pod, possibly with deathwind upgrade. We are looking at 125-140 points. Compared to 145-150 for 5 tacs + HF in TLHF RB or 165-170 for 5 tacs + HF in LasPlas (depending on whether I take dozer blade or not).

[SamaNagol]

5 Tacs, Heavy Flamer, Comb-Flamer, Drop Pod with Deathwind gives you good isolated objective taking units.

 

I wouldn't even bother with 10 man troops units, they aren't mobile unless they are in a rhino and then numbers dont matter.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, interesting. That setup would cost me 140 points. 15 points less than the equivalent tacs in a TLHF setup.

[ElectricPaladin]

I kind of like the idea of razorbacks with bolter scouts in it... kind of like the stormraven with scouts, it's a good way to add a (relatively) inexpensive unit that 1) helps to pay the Troops tax to get the benefits of the BSFD (Baal Strike Force Detachment) and 2) could theoretically jump out to snag an objective, contest an objective, or otherwise do work. It's kind of like a poor man's land speeder storm (but with the added benefit of not being a pain-in-the- model).

The real question, though is this: does the razorback do enough work to justify this scheme? As has been pointed out to me - once a dedicated razorback lover - razorbacks really are pretty fragile. If what you really want is a lascannon platform, you're probably better off with a land raider or a predator. If what you want is something to bring an assault cannon in close to the enemy, why not invest in a Baal predator or a land raider crusader? Or for that matter (to refer to our other, similar thread) a stormraven?

The razorback's pros seem to be:

• Cheaper
• Holds dudes (advantage over predators)
• Fast and Dozer Blade option (advantage over land raider)

I'm not sure if the razorback justifies itself.

[Frater Cornelius]

Since most other weapons are covered by better tanks and the objective it to keep them cheap, the TLHB and TLHF are the sole options. I think that TLHF has the edge. First turn move 24" and hide somewhere. Second turn flame some cover camping stuff like Pathfinders.

 

The other question with Scouts in RB is whether you can justify using two FA slots on RB to transport the scouts.

 

By the way, TLHF with Scouts has another advantage. You get a Scout Move with the RB, possibly bringing you in range to flame T1. However, you do this at the cost of ASM and/or Grav Bikers. Not sure it is justifiable.

[knife&fork]

Can you scout with a non dedicated transport?

[SamaNagol]

Think it only confers to Dedicated Transports.

[Frater Cornelius]

No. They can scout in a transport. Scout is contagious and they are allowed to deploy in a FA RB. Scout move happens after deployment.

That is the way you can scout a Land Raider with the help of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with the Liber Heresius. A rather popular way to get Grav Cents in LR to the front faster.

 

A scouting TLHF RB would be like a mini FS Baal from the old codex. Shame it costs you FA slots :/

[knife&fork]

Well, that makes the TLHF interesting for them. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Again, is it worth the FA slot? You pay 120 points (with dozer blade), which is nice for what you get. But the less of the FA slots really bothers me. MSU bikes are a thing.

Fair enough, bikes may fall out of flavour, but when facing Triptide, three NDK or two WK, you wish you would've had some bloody grav.

[knife&fork]

I want grav, I just don't think BA bikes are a good grav platform.

 

They can't tank well, if you have to jink then what's the point of a few expensive relentless grav guns? 

 

We can't bring them in huge numbers, 2 + combi is max for bike squad.

[Frater Cornelius]

They also compete with ASM, however I consider CS to be a superior melta delivery system.

[knife&fork]

Only 3 gravguns and a bit expensive, but yeah, that's where I'm leaning as well. 

 

I would have been all over grav jumpers (ASM)

[Frater Cornelius]

My first game will be with 5 tacs with HF and possibly a CF in a TLHF RB and Grav Bikes then. If I find superior ways in dealing with MCs (unlikely but possible), then I might look into Scouts.

It is still a solid option when you know you will face Imps or Orks. It is definitely an interesting way of doing things.

[Black Marshal]

in my humble(and obvious) opinion razors like everything in this game only work well when supported by something else. I for example run 4 AV 13 tanks 2 rhinos and a razorback dreadnought and stormraven. the Razor back is not high on the priority list there but give it obsec and a squad it can score late game and a lascannon with tl plas will threaten anything in the game. If they are shooting at my razor back they are not shooting at my preds and that's fine with me

[knife&fork]

Sure, but since everything costs points a distraction unit can only be effective as long as it doesn't take away too much from the rest of your force.

 

Case in point: land speeders.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ouch, how did I ever forget the humble speeder :D Seems as good as anything in low point games.

 

@ marshal - you a solid (and obvious) point :P For BA those distraction units would Baals, Sicaran, DC and CS once they arrive (or if you deployed them).

However, you have to consider that a smart player will not go for the bait. If he considers the RB a threat, it will go. Thus, cheapness ;)