Master Sheol Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I have the new BA codex and it has some "interesting" things that i guess will end into a DA codex whenGW will redo it (considering that their revenues are still going down i expect they will release a new 7th edition DA codex during 2015 to grab more cash)... First... In HQ section there is just the IC (chaplains, librarians, captains, techmarines, and so on) each one fill a slot (no more "slot free" techmarine and things like that) Second... Command squads are elite and they fill a slot and you dont need a IC to unlock one so you can have three Command Squads even if you have just one IC... Third... the apothecary and the company campion in the command squads are mandatory while the standard bearer is still optional... The apothecary now has bolt pistol and chainsword... the champion still has the combat shield and power weapon and bolt pistol combo... only the three remaining veterans can change their wargear... Fourth... BA didnt have access to Storm Talons or to the AA tanks so for AA they still have to use the SR and the AA missiles in the various squads (if you dont buy a fortification with AA Weapons ofc)... Fifth... there is no more a FOC altering IC/SC... Sixth... No centurions but access to grav weapons... The first thing is a bit annoying for us DA cause we couldn't have more than 2 PFG not having access to 2 IC + 2 Techmarines anymore... The second thing is partially annoying cause the command squads would steal slots to DW/DWK/CoVets squads... The Third thing is extremely bad cause we would have a command squad with a mandatory Champion with BoC (know also as the "blade of the Suicidal idiot of the Village")... The only good thing is that the Command Squad still costs 100 points so it's cheaper than now that you pay 100 points plus the upgrade to apotechary and champion... RW command squad would suffer about the BoC thing too while the DW command sqaud would suffer for the apothecary thing and his nerfed wargear... In addition you already have a FNP source in the squad and buying a Standard of fortitude would be redundant (expecially considering the high cost of it)... The Fourth is bad too... If they didnt gave access to the ST to the BA we could imagine not having access to the SR... Adding this to no access to AA tanks would be a severe blow to DA that would still have the crappy flyers (if they dont fix them but i doubt considering the poor amateurish work of the GD) no access to more AA than the AA missiles for the ML and to a good flying transport beside the SE from FW and we know that FW is not universally accepted... The fifth thing could be very bad for us cause i can imagine a peculiar FOC for pure RW and pure DW armies at the end of the book or some formations for RW and DW company but this would be limiting like it was in 3rd edition codex cause in mixed DA armies RW and DW would remain FA and elite and we should stick with mandatory tactical and scouts... The sixth thing is mixed here... The lack of centurions it's good aestetically (they are freaking ugly) but they are a very solid unit that could be useful to us... On the other hand i would welcome the access to grav weapons to have more tactical options in our squads... These are obviously just speculations based on the layout of the BA codex that being a more codex astartes oriented army than the previous SW codex are showing what we could expect in a DA 7th edition codex... Basically if the GD dont do a good work (and i dont have much trust in them considering our codices from 1999 on) we could have more nerfs than bonuses considering the low power level that our codex already has... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Interesting points about their dex; let's hope for the best then aye ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hmmm... Just thinking out loud. Without the FOC changing characters, we may see Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing squadrons move to troops with the Tactical Squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 If we cannot take them as troops in a future dex then I will become 'Stobz, The Unbound!' Just for the lolz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 We will get DW and RW formations just like the Wolves did. If not in the main codex then in a Supplement. Whether they will have Obj secured, highly unlikely but I dare say they will get other bonuses. Since playing 7th I haven't found Obj secured to be that big on an issue (for me at least). Troops choices can be annoying but they aren't very tough. I haven't yet seen a Troop choice than can hold out against one of my DW squads or survive charging against a DW squad parked right on an objective. There are positive things to look forward to. The formations that have come out of the SW/BA codex's and supplements have had a lot of positive feedback. Whether they allow these in tournaments is a different issue all together however for playing at your local in a league or friendly match whatever formations we do get will aid us well. Chin up guys we will endure as we have always done! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 Usually the formations in a codex are big things Like an entire company and/or a warband... For DA i expect to see a vattle company formation that has 1 Naster 1 Chaplain 1 Command squad 6 Tactical squads 2 Assault squads 2 Devastators squad 1-3 Dreadnoughts 1-2 Company Veterans squads with some additionsl bonuses like thr BA one (reroll warlord traut, objective secured for troops, another bonus)... The there Will be an ad hoc FOC For multiwing (usual FOC but maybe with additional slots in FA/elite and some different bonus) DW (with 2-6 élite For all the DW squads wuth 2 compulsory just 0-2 troops and 0-2 FA and maybe 0-4 HS For more LR) and one For RW (2-6 FA slots 0-2 élites 0-2 troops 0-3 HS) each with its peculiar bonus... The problem with DA it's that we must have 3 formations (cause battle/reserve companies have a different organisation compared with RW and DW) and Three peculiar FOC to represent a tipical mixed DA force a RW only Force and a DW force each formation and FOC with different bonuses... What i fear is that GW Will screw all of them as usual when it comes to DA codex or they Will go to the easy road making firmation and foc For the multiwing making possibile to Field a RW only and DW only army just with unbound... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The BA unit stucture is incomparable to C: DA, or even C: SM. Best not to look at what the BA now have, and where they hve it, and assume the next C: DA will have many, or any, correlations to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I echo shabadoo's thoughts. We can't extrapolate nothing of BA because they are different and because no matter what we think GW will always pull a fast one on us. The only constant in our codex was to be a testbed to others, not the other way around... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Agree with CL and Shabs. Remember the Blood Angels Codex itself might be 'experimental' in FOC terms and never repeated. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Imo their going to eliminate our company veterans in place of sternguard and vet vanguard which will be just stupid. They ruined assault marines for ba's they'll ruin our veterans in pur elite slot (which is sad because I'm going to miss my not-thundernators). Its easier than keeping our upgrade kit/veterans kit around. They are the last of their kind, the last army specific upgrade box for a chapter that isn't wolves. They will probably be dead in our next codex as well as our deathwing drop pods,next codex update I predict new toys for deathwing (maybe a unique raider variant or co-opting a fw model like the Helios). The interrogator chaplain will now be an upgrade for the chaplain and they will share a statline like a commissar does, however the interrogator will receive something free, perhaps artificers armor?? I expect all our hq's to get massive price cuts and lose their ability to make x troops OMITTING azreal who will then become a Lord of war with a revamped statline and a new model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 They have removed the "specialist Troops" concept from 7th Edition. That much is obvious. Depending on where we fall within the cycle for 7th, we will get Detachments, but there won't be DWT or RW Troops. I know everyone likes to argue about this because everyone fears losing them (it seems like), but specialist Troops isn't how the game works this edition. It's not experimental, it has happened over three Codexes now. Besides, why does everyone seem to hate it so much? Everything can score. I'd much rather get another rule and just demolish Objective Secured Troops from a Combined Arms Detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 For forecasting, i would say that we will lose the troops termies and bikes. BA lost their troops Assault Marines from what i've heard, i'm not surprised to see if we also do for our termies and bikes. At best we would get a supplement book in which they gave us formations, like Deathwing Strike formation, and gave the Deathwing the Deathwing assault rule if you take that formation (i'm thinking we might actually lose the deathwing assault rule too, but get a price discount on the DWT). Or the ravenwing scouting formations, then they'll give you scout on that formation. Don't like, go unbound .. so sayeth GW. 7th is really big on formations imho, and i think that's just the way GW rules gonna work from now on and some of the awesome rules will be in formations and detachments. Keep in mind too, that GW most likely shuffle some of the stats of our gears too come new codex. The PFG might work just like Kustom Force Field later on but with 6++, but with a price increase, or the Blade Of Caliban mayhaps turned super awesome, making the free champion awesome too. Honestly, that's how i see it and think how it'll be in the future assuming we get dex on the pipeline anytime soon, otherwise we might as well enjoy what we have right now :D. I'm not fussing rite now about how our codex gonna be because it seems like a long time to get a new one. Instead of a codex, if you ask me, we gonna get the nids treatment.... a campaign supplement, where we get detachments, formations and whatnot. My 2 cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I agree with Bryan in that troops will likely be pared down to the minimum, I don't have a problem with this. I also have seen very few occasions where Objective Secured has been needed. On the cynical side, I think that any additional formation we get would have compulsory units like the Land Speeder Vengeance and Nephilim just to sell those units, that would make me a very sad panda unless they were majorly fixed ruleswise (I've already fixed the problem of the LSVs look withthe help of FW ;) ). On the bright side, maybe they'll actually fix all the broken units and give people a reason to buy some more plastic crack :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3888923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 I can understand the dpoubts made by ome of you but we should watch the nature of the 5 Astartes Codices (SM, SW, GK, BA, DA) all part of a "big plan"... Two of them (SW and GK) are more "anarchic" while the other three follow a certain scheme with just some spice added... SM, BA and DA have Tacticals and scouts as the only troops... Then they have several kind of veterans that can be compared to each other... DA has the CoVets that can be compared to Sternguard, DA have the BK that can be compared to the Vanguard... SM and BA have two kind of termie squads while we have a single entry with the options of the two shooty and assault variant mixed... Sm have honour guard as the most elite unit while BA have sanguinary guyard and DA have DWK... and so on... So the main structure of the three "basically codex astartes armies" is very similar... In fact DA still have the BK as FA instead of elite cause the DA codex is basiccalluy a glorified 5th edition codex... If you imagine the DWK with 5th edition rules for the maces you can see that they would be AMAZING in 5th and they are just adapted to the 6th with the smite ability to compensate the loss of competitivity due to the access to maces only (and this was done in a poor way cause the Champion doesnt have the smite ability for no logical reason)... So as the structure of 6th edition DA and SM codices is very similar, i can see a 7th edition DA and SM codices to follow the BA codex blueprint (with the obvious differences due to the peculiar units and specuial rules)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 The Structure of the DA and BA codexes has not been that similar previously, and will not be very similar now either. Their HQs, "HQs", and Dreadnoughts in particular have been, and still are, all over the place in the FOC, and this has perhaps led to the shunting of other units elsewhere. For instance, BA have Command Squads and Honor Guard. Both used to be HQ choices, but the Honor Guard remain an HQ choice and the Command Squad is now an Elites choice, seemingly for no reason other than to remove it from the bloated HQ section. It really should have remained an HQ choice. Not sure what the thinking was there. As to the future and the whole Troops slot thing, it could be that they implement something like the current vanilla bike rule, meaning "any bike unit of X or more models counts as a Troops choice when an HQ on bike is fielded. They could still do that and have "Master of the RW/DW: RWAS/DWT are Troops choices" rules too though. Either way, I hope Black Knights (basic, not command) go to the Elites slot rather than stay as Fast Atack. The combatination of the above would allow for greater variety in bound RW forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I predict that all our commonly shared units with BA will end up in the same slots ie command squads, techmarines etc to be a given. Don't think we'll lose company vets. Maybe a few foc moves BK as elites and finally Azzy will become a LoW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Just had an after thought, mainly based on what I'd do and pure wishlisting also but how about a completely separate DW/RW codex like tewpestus scions that can be allied to the parent codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 There was no reason for Blood Angels to have assault squads as troops, that was a Wardism that was done away with. On the other hand Dark Angels have had unlocked terminator and bike troops going back to third edition. I think it unlikely that they'd lose that option. I would like to see Black Knights moved to elites. That would allow more Land Speeders to be taken as fast attack. If they do make command squads count as slot using elite choices then we may load up on Command Squads in preference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 There was no reason for Blood Angels to have assault squads as troops, that was a Wardism that was done away with. On the other hand Dark Angels have had unlocked terminator and bike troops going back to third edition. I think it unlikely that they'd lose that option. Nah, we initially got that in the pdf-codex. So it started in 4th edition...that's three editions until now, quite a large time-span if you think about it. And that's why it hurts a bit for many players who built their armies around them. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I expect Deathwing/Ravenwing can no longer be troops. But I also expect a formation will hit that allows playing pure Deathwing/Ravenwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 There was no reason for Blood Angels to have assault squads as troops, that was a Wardism that was done away with. On the other hand Dark Angels have had unlocked terminator and bike troops going back to third edition. I think it unlikely that they'd lose that option. Nah, we initially got that in the pdf-codex. So it started in 4th edition...that's three editions until now, quite a large time-span if you think about it.And that's why it hurts a bit for many players who built their armies around them. Snorri No it was in the third edition. You could field either a pure DW or RW army with specific HQs. But no mixing between the wings. Not strictly HQs unlocking units as we now know it as that mechanic didn't exist. But close. As for BA I'm sure they could field a pure Death Company army in third - but could be wrong. Is this still possible? So each of us had our highly specialised army build options. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 There was no reason for Blood Angels to have assault squads as troops, that was a Wardism that was done away with. On the other hand Dark Angels have had unlocked terminator and bike troops going back to third edition. I think it unlikely that they'd lose that option. Nah, we initially got that in the pdf-codex. So it started in 4th edition...that's three editions until now, quite a large time-span if you think about it. And that's why it hurts a bit for many players who built their armies around them. Snorri Yes but while DA had since 2nd edition the DW and the RW BA always had a codex astartes organisation with just the death company making them different from the UM... Only in 3rd edition they had the Baal predator too and only in 5th edition they get SR and SG... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 And based on the formation for the Flesh Tearers from Exterminatus, you should still be able to run a compliment of six BA Assault Squads alongside other things, just like you could if they were Troops. Past history is meaningless, because it is about how design is done for this edition. Detachments with altered FOCs is how altered force structures are done this edition, not altered Troops selections. The Dark Angels should be no more exempt from this than any other army, and all armies need to be brought into line with this concept. Since everything scores this edition, there's no need for the Troops designator to make special units scoring any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Indeed. Seems we're back to the old days of two small Scout squads as Troops and then pile in the tastier Elites etc (remembering Lysanderwing builds from way back). Well not for us yet - we still have Belial's, Sammy's and Azzy's unlocking goodness for now ^_^. Interesting that the BA Command squads now take an Elite slot. That will create some headscratching as that area is quite saturated with interesting options. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Well as far as your first 3 points, I'm not surprised. Technically command squads are veterans so it does sort of make sense for them to go there. I wouldn't say that our elite slot is really all that crowded, if you're rolling with multiple dreadnoughts you're probably not really able to run too many DW squads in a Belial list anyway. Mandatory apothecary I wouldn't bet on if we have the Fort Banner available to us, BA doesn't have that. I don't think GW would be THAT boneheaded to force that. Relying on a Stormraven for AA isn't all that bad, the thing can easily get in melta range and is pretty durable, it also acts as a transport. At the end of the day, BA isn't DA which has no flying transport and NO solid AA (sorry Nephilim advocates, I'm still not buying your arguments!!). At the end of the day GW's given the option of the Adeptus Stormwing Formation. 1 Reserves roll for 3 flyers and an extra special rule. It's a solid bargain. As for the FOC stuff. We've all seen this coming, since the C:SM release we haven't seen a codex that has had this. Oddly, none of the rumors have been floating a BA supplement, which nearly every codex in 2014 has had. AM saw Tempstus, Orks saw Gazghkull, SW saw CoF, DE saw Covens. Even CSM got a Crimson Slaughter supp, which maybe is the sort of approach GW will take with BA, but needless to say the "next gen" codices (aka 7th edition) have seen supplements. The frustrating thing is that I believe RW is going to go the way of the dodo. We went from being THE bike army, to sharing the spotlight with a very capable bike army, to probably ultimately being unable to run a full bike army altogether. DW seems a far greater candidate to become a supplement as Terminators have a nice $65+ multi-kit which is a newer cast and let's face it, people like terminators. The changes to scoring units in 7th really took a lot of the pressure off of taking troops. I know we all love to pat ourselves on the back for our "super scoring" terminators and landraiders, but let's be real those units can beat another objective secured unit off of an objective. Obsec in my experience has been situational at best. I say if you play RW right now, enjoy it because I don't think it's going to be around forever. As for Centurions and Grav Weaponry that's sort of two different discussions. I think Grav Weaponry should and will eventually be in this codex. There's an upgrade sprue waiting to be sold in that idea. As for centurions, the damn things are not a cheap unit to field, and if we WERE to get them, you could say goodbye to fielding terminators simultaneously. They would go well with a GW focused army though. This is the age of the formation and the detachment, and I think GW has gone overboard with it. I think in an effort to reduce the barrier of entry they've only made it more confusing by adding so many levels of formations and detachment it's almost pointless to even have rules governing detachments and formations in the first place. \ FOC changing rules are gone, especially when they know instead of writing 1 line of copy folded into a codex, they can write those same few lines in another book that you can access for an extra $50. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300343-organisation-in-ba-codex-and-what-could-happen-to-da-codex/#findComment-3889717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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