DC vs. Sanguinary Guard vs. Honor Guard vs. Vanguard Vets

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm interested in having a conversation about how these four face-beating power armored units match up against each other. It's my suspicion that each one has a potential specialty - at least one build that makes it viable, at the very least, if its use matches your playstyle, or when paired with the right HQ - though I don't doubt that one will emerge as the "best."

 

Command Squad

 

Pros

• Base cost 100 points
• Comes with its own baby priest (grants 5+ FNP but no WS bonus) who has basic veteran stats and his gear cannot be further upgraded.
• Comes with a company champion, who gets a 6++ shield and a power sword standard (can't be further upgraded).
• Remaining three veterans can take storm shields, and any of the melee/ranged/special weapon options.
• ATSKNF

Cons

• Jump packs are 5 points per model.
• Power weapons cost extra.
• Fixed squad size

 

Death Company

 

Pros

• Base cost 100 points
• Jump packs are only 3 points per model.
• Any number of power weapons, power fists, thunder hammers, inferno pistols, and plasma pistols possible.
• Squad size can be increased to up to 15 models.
• Between Rage and pistol/CCW pairs, the most attacks.
• MANY cool USRs, including FNP standard.

 Cons

• Er... not sure they have any.
• How about now way to get a ++ save?
• Oh, yeah - power weapons don't come standard. I guess that's a con when compared to...

Sanguinary Guard

 

Pros

• Jump packs come standard
• Power weapons (swords or axes only) come standard and are master-crafted.
• Angelus boltguns are a pretty underrated ranged weapon, and can be exchanged for plasma or infernus pistols.
• Squad size can be increased to 10
• Fearless
• 2+ Saves

Cons

• No way to get an invulnerable save.
• Still kinda expensive (165 base).
• Fewest attacks (no way to pair CCWs with pistols).

Vanguard Veterans

 

Pros

• Cheapest option at 95 points base.
• Cheap jump packs (3 each)
• Options for hand flamers, grav/inferno/plasma pistols.
• Options for storm shields.

 

• • •

 

 

Looking at the above, here are my immediate impressions:

• Command squads may see use in lists where you don't want to bring a sanguinary priest as your HQ, as having a 5+ FNP on your HQ and his bodyguard is not a bad buff.
  • Especially consider them as a bodyguard for a librarian. Other squads listed here have a mere sergeant, whereas the company champion is a much more appropriate recipient of such blessings as Quickening. It's not the same thing as Quickening a captain, but it ain't bad, either.
• Neither is a great choice if you are sure you want an all jump, all power weapon squad (in both cases, sanguinary guard is cheaper). However, they may work if you want a squad that is all jump or all power weapons but not both.
• Both command squads and vanguard veterans share the following kit options:
  • Both have the best gunslinger firebase options, because they have access to various special rifles/pistols. Not sure why you want to do that with the Blood Angels codex, but maybe you're in a contrary mood or want to psyche out your opponent or something... I dunno.
  • Both make it relatively easy (if expensive) to put storm shields on power armor guys. If you fear AP 1 and 2, that's probably the best way to go.
• Death company is still really good if you want a face beater.
• Cheap jump packs are great, but...
• Getting all of them power weapons is expensive, but with their larger number of attacks they may be able to make up in quantity what they miss out in in quality.
• FNP for the squad is great, but any HQ with them will not enjoy that benefit.
• Although they no longer enjoy any particular benefit from the company of a chaplain, re-rolls are exponentially more powerful the more dice you rolled initially, so it's still a relatively potent combination.
• If you want an all jump, all power weapon squad, sanguinary guard are still your best choice.
• The cost break and axe options make them much more attractive than in our previous codex.
• Now character for a librarian to buff.

 

Overall, I think that the sanguinary guard and death company come out on top. The former has a lot power weapons for the best price, which is a great advantage. They will chew through MEQs like the Blood Angels release chewed through my wallet. The latter remains a great way to overwhelm your opponent with a huge number of attacks. Both of them are Fearless, durable, and guaranteed to at least tie up most opponents for a while, assuming they don't win outright.

 

However, vanguard vets and honor guard have two advantages. The first is that they have the best ranged combat options. If you want to spam grav, or plasma, or melta, or make gunsligner squads with a ton of pistols, these are the guys to do it. The other option is enhanced durability - these are the only power armor squads that can take storm shields. Especially the honor guard (who you can arrange to have a 3+, a 3++, and a 5+ FNP) can be quite a brick when kitted this way. Give them power lances (S+1/3 on the charge) and inside of the BSFD, you've got three men in the unit throwing out S 6 AP 3 attacks at I 5 on the charge turn, and taking hits with 3++ and FNP, which isn't bad.

 

The problem remains: cost. If you want all power weapons and jump packs, sanguinary guard still does it cheaper.

 

My ultimate analysis is this: if you want a unit to fly around axing and swording people with power weapons, just do sanguinary guard. If you want to do something odd, like gunslingers or storm shields, do vanguard vets. If you don't want to give up FNP for your HQ and his bodyguard, but you want to bring a librarian or a captain, do a command squad, and probably do them as gunslingers or storm shield guys so at least they're unique.

 

In short, I will probably do some vanguard veterans as storm shield, power lance, and jump pack guys... but I'm in no hurry to buy the models. I've got a bunch of sanguinary guard to paint first.

[Frater Cornelius]

Command Squad is a shooty squad and a character bus. They do not fit in the same category as Vanguards, SG and DC.

 

I prefer DC because they have a reasonable price and work as a great infantry blender. They make use of +1S and +1I on the charge with plenty of attacks, Fearless and FnP. They can also hunt MCs and Tanks with JP and Fists.

 

SG relies on SP for survivability and I find the cost a little too steep. I will try them though.

 

Vanguards pale in comparison to both in my eyes.

[Chairman_woo]

Right now I'm thinking 10pt stormshields on vanguard in particular may well have a valuable place in jump heavy armies, specifically tieing up that big nasty you don't want to deal with yet (wraithlords, greater daemons, power weapon heavy CC units etc.). 

This isn't a million miles off how I used to use them with heroic intervention, though now naturally they are going to have to operate as part of a formation rather than just falling from the sky. 

Sanguard and death company will wreck face vs most things, but you are always going to be at risk from gits with low AP and high initiative (like most Monstrous creatures). Here the vanguard can theoretically step in and either hold them up for cheap (140-150pts can get you 4-5 bodies with 3++), or hold them up and hammer smash their faces while you are at it (probably looking at least 200+ to do that though).

I guess you could do with with a command squad but the FNP will frequently be nullified by st8-10 and the champions wargear seems I'll suited to the task at hand. (and you don't have the option of extra ablative bodies)


Small and cheap (4-5 sheilds and maybe a random fist) should work great vs MC's & walkers but probably rubbish vs most other things.

Expensive and powerful (4-5 shields plus 3-4 CC weapons and more bodies) should be able to hold it's own vs most targets if needs be (we can't always choose our targets) but naturally is going to eat into your SG/Death co budget so I guess it depends on weather the extra utility of vanguard if worth it to you or vs your particular opponent)


My current plan is something like 10ish jump DC, 10ish Sanguard and 10ish shield heavy vanguard & then dedicating the rest of the army to support roles.  The idea being that each of those three has a slight edge under different circumstances and should hopefully be able to support each other nicely (or become a nice big point sink for my enemy to shoot to death :( ). 

[Frater Cornelius]

Right now I'm thinking 10pt stormshields on vanguard in particular may well have a valuable place in jump heavy armies, specifically tieing up that big nasty you don't want to deal with yet (wraithlords, greater daemons, power weapon heavy CC units etc.).

This isn't a million miles off how I used to use them with heroic intervention, though now naturally they are going to have to operate as part of a formation rather than just falling from the sky.

Sanguard and death company will wreck face vs most things, but you are always going to be at risk from gits with low AP and high initiative (like most Monstrous creatures). Here the vanguard can theoretically step in and either hold them up for cheap (140-150pts can get you 4-5 bodies with 3++), or hold them up and hammer smash their faces while you are at it (probably looking at least 200+ to do that though).

I guess you could do with with a command squad but the FNP will frequently be nullified by st8-10 and the champions wargear seems I'll suited to the task at hand. (and you don't have the option of extra ablative bodies)

Small and cheap (4-5 sheilds and maybe a random fist) should work great vs MC's & walkers but probably rubbish vs most other things.

Expensive and powerful (4-5 shields plus 3-4 CC weapons and more bodies) should be able to hold it's own vs most targets if needs be (we can't always choose our targets) but naturally is going to eat into your SG/Death co budget so I guess it depends on weather the extra utility of vanguard if worth it to you or vs your particular opponent)

My current plan is something like 10ish jump DC, 10ish Sanguard and 10ish shield heavy vanguard & then dedicating the rest of the army to support roles. The idea being that each of those three has a slight edge under different circumstances and should hopefully be able to support each other nicely (or become a nice big point sink for my enemy to shoot to death ).

That is why they make an excellent bus for Dante. They arrive (almost guaranteed), shoot something to death and let Dante tank all S8-10 shots and give him FnP due to Eternal Warrior.

Edit: Marked wrong section of the quote.

[JamesI]

RIght now I have a hard time expecting I will use Vanguard.  DC and Sanguinary Guard will be nearly always in my list (oh and both can get a 5+ invul if you roll the right power for your librarian).

[Sviox]

Command Squad is a shooty squad and a character bus. They do not fit in the same category as Vanguards, SG and DC.

 

I prefer DC because they have a reasonable price and work as a great infantry blender. They make use of +1S and +1I on the charge with plenty of attacks, Fearless and FnP. They can also hunt MCs and Tanks with JP and Fists.

 

SG relies on SP for survivability and I find the cost a little too steep. I will try them though.

 

Vanguards pale in comparison to both in my eyes.

This.

 

You need to play the squads by their benefits, which I see are:

1) CS is the best delivery of plasma (due to priest) and/or your warlord (especially foot-slogging one, put inside a razoback), so what they do is provide local fire support and warlord survivability

2) DC is at best with jump packs as a large(ish) squad with a couple of hidden power weapons and fists/thunder hammers, best choice against horde armies due to huge attack output.

3) SG is the scalpel against space marines and other heavy infantry (I'd keep it to small 5-7 unit size since it gets expensive otherwise)

4) VV is kind of something between regular assault squad (AS) and SG - hard to see any clear battlefield need for it, besides the access to storm shields- perhaps this works best as a booster unit in conjunction with naked AS or mech tacticals?

5) AS lacks the punch in cc, but makes up in access to 2 special weapons (+sarge) and cheap base price with jump packs - I'm going to use it solely as deep striking 5 man specialist teams that take out a certain target with firepower and disrupt enemy units.

[shaun03]

one thing about DC is there option of taking bolters, often over looked but with cheaper JP, they gain a huge boost to taking them with bolters and JP make the mobile fire base with pw makes them bigger threat. It would be great if they could take LC.

 

Sterngaurd not sure how I feel about them in the new dex, kinda leaning to benching them. Reason being ASM 5 bodies 2 melta and gunslinger sgt is cheaper suscide sq and doesn't take up elite slot. Also you do go all flamers or take Tac sq and Max out flamer too. Just think I can save points, but dish out there role to normal marines.

 

VV I still like as well the option of storm shield is nice plus. they will make a good bus liby and use of Quicking in sgt looks good. SS and new HI rule will go a long away to boost the survival of who ever they guarding.

 

SG look like they should have look when they first came out. No inv hurts but it's not that big of deal breaker now that Dante has hit and run.

 

I like your write up it gives a good base line for discussing they roles each one can play

[depthcharge12]

Sanguard are perfect in a blob of ten with 2 power fists and a priest with a jet pack. He complements them really well with the FNP and WS buffs.

 

Death company are a must in every BA list. They are too cool not to take. Use them to overload TEQ saves or eat blobs.

[Frater Cornelius]

The real question for me is how to run the DC at 1750 or 1650. I have found my 1500 config, more or less. I need to experiment.

[Frater Cornelius]

Expanding on the subject of SG vs DC:

 

The way I would run SG would be 10 dudes, 2 fists, banner and a Priest with JP. This clocks in at 450 points. A bloody lot. However, you are looking at a 2+ 5+ FnP (better than a Terminator in most respects), 3 Attacks base and 4 on the charge, WS5 and Master-Crafted on the Swords and S9 on the Fists. AP3 will allow them to blend through any unit with body-count higher than 5, especially with I5 on the charge.

That is not bad. Given that a lot of firepower these days comes from AP4 or less (I am looking at you, Serpents, Tesla and Missile Pods), the SG will be hard to take down. It is also worth pointing out that SG does decent dakka with their Angelus Bolters, but shooting at a unit you are about to jump might increase the range you need to make it.

However, 450 points is a lot.

 

By comparison, you can get 15 DC with 2 Fists at 395 (or 10 DC + 2 Fists at 280). You are looking at A LOT more attacks, less survivability on an individual basis, but bring greater numbers to the table, which evens it out. They do not have AP3, and only WS4 and no re-rolls with master-crafted. Without Astorath we are looking at approx. the same output and survivability against most unit, but at a lower price tag.

 

I do not know, as awesome as they sound, I find it hard to justify them :(

[SamaNagol]

They do different jobs. Dante giving either of them H7R is massive because it allows you to re-deploy and get out of combat with things you dont want to be bogged down by.

 

I really want to run Dante/Priest/8SG with 1 fist in a unit... but its such a huge point sink.

[Defender of the Faith]

Expanding on the subject of SG vs DC:

 

The way I would run SG would be 10 dudes, 2 fists, banner and a Priest with JP. This clocks in at 450 points. A bloody lot. However, you are looking at a 2+ 5+ FnP (better than a Terminator in most respects), 3 Attacks base and 4 on the charge,

 

 

Maybe that's a stupid question, but how do they get 3 attacks base? They've got 2 in their profile and don't get an extra attack for their swords as they require two hands...

[Landrick]

The banner I believe

[Frater Cornelius]

The banner I believe

 

Indeed.

[Gumo9]

Death Company are Relentless now so I'm thinking of trying jump packs and boltguns. Double-tap then Chaaaaarge !

[SamaNagol]

They were always Relentless

[Frater Cornelius]

One more Bolter shot is not as great as one more A at S5 I5 and much worse when stuck in a grind since you will be stuck at 2A. You might also ruin charge by killing to many models at range.

[Drunken Angel]

Hmmm we should compare with what we are likely to encounter as well

 

The most likely units to encounter in close combat are

 

Space wolves Thunder Wolf Cav

Tyranids unsure apart from warriors

Talos Chronos Grotescque in Dark Edar

Wraith Constructs from Eldar

 

I play tested against Eldar

Mephiston really messes up Wraith knights but he needs to hide in the Death Company to LOS strength 10 shooting, once in combat he is golden against MC's now.

Dante also is a match on the charge and as he has hit and run he can rinse and repeat till its dead, Meph kills wraith knights faster usually the turn he charges.

Its a toss up Dante has the mobility to catch Wraith Knights but Mephiston kills them faster.

 

I guess this would apply to any MC not just Eldar MC's

 

Sanguinary Guard are very very good ..... Death Company are just better though.

Cheaper, more attacks, fearless, relentless, native FNP and able to mix and match weapons thats the important point for me.

 

DC with JP are cheaper and you are going to loose models to shooting each SG model removed is a greater loss than a DC removed.  DC with JP is 10 pts cheaper.  I don't need a power weapon on each DC model like SG.  With correct model placement I can minimise my point losses to shooting in DC and have native FnP.

[Frater Cornelius]

Mephiston will not catch a good WK. Mephi moves 6", WK moves 12". You need someone with good speed or good ranged.

 

As for opposition:

TWC: SG wins because of AP3. If all TWC have SS, then DC pulls ahead, but few people do it like that.

Nids: Against MCs, SG pulls ahead unless there is that one dude with 2+ save. Against swarms, DC pulls ahead.

Centurions: DC wins, mass of attacks does it against 2+.

Bikes: SG wins due to AP3

NDK or GK TDA: DC wins due to mass of attacks against the 2+ save.

Wraithguard: SG pulls ahead

Wraithknight: Is it s toss up, but in that case DC pull ahead because S5 AP3 does little against T8, so the increased number of bodies of DC will win (to protect to Fists).

Tau: About equal, against Riptide DC pulls ahead.

Against massed infantry (GEQ or Orks) DC pulls head with bodies and attacks.

 

Verdict: SG pulls ahead 3+ and 4+ save models, while DC blends GEQ and pulls ahead on 2+. Keep in mind that SG with Swords and 2 Fists. Axes are an option, but wasted that awesome I5. I guess it really comes down to what you need. Massed infantry killings or MEQ blender.

[Remtek]

I don't really think offense is to relevant in DC vs SG, a lot of these units loose to both. DC has better survivability vs everything except ap3.

[Drunken Angel]

I don't really think offense is to relevant in DC vs SG, a lot of these units loose to both. DC has better survivability vs everything except ap3.

Cover cover cover ..... your are more likely to be shot with AP3-AP2 than hit in combat (we are I5 on the charge now!) Cover is on the board and its free plus FNP makes a huge difference.

[Frater Cornelius]

I like DC mainly for their cheaper cost and no reliance on an IC for FnP.

[Remtek]

If you have alot of los blockers on the table i think SG can be fine, wish i could run them with only 3 models as a harass unit. I'm just really liking JP DC this edition.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, Solodin style would've been interesting.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I use both at 2000 points. SG are 5 men, IP and Banner. 3 swords, two axes, I don't like fists on them. They're strength 6 on the charge, anyways.  Put a priest and your favourite character in there, buff everyone and slice up some stuff. 205 points is the price tag on that unit.

 

 

DC are going to be about 8 men, JP, 2 powerswords, an axe and a fist. No chaplain here, so this is going to be new for me. Not sure how these are going to fare against *basically anything* without the re-rolls. They might actually need more bodies.

 

 

Snorri