DC vs. Sanguinary Guard vs. Honor Guard vs. Vanguard Vets

[SonOfThunder]

Played a game saturday against nids, had a 9 man DC and a 5 SG. SG run with Dante and a priest. The DC suffered from a really lucky Mawloc, lost 7 of them before they got to do anything. After that, with only 2 left, they were lucky enough to kill 5 stealers :)...Wasn't impressed, but this was obviously situational...that Mawloc was difficult to plan for :)

 

The Dante-star killed a trygon Prime, several stealers, Biovores, lictors...In the end only Dante and the priest were alive, with 1 wound each, but they kept everyone else alive for a few turns... till the Mawloc hit again :) 2+ saves helped a lot, and all that AP3-2 (1 axe, 1 fist) was very good against the trygon. Dante alone couldn't do it.

 

The thing with the SG is that they are so valuable that FnP is not enough protection. They need a tank. The DC have enough punch on the charge to act on their own, and they do have ablative wounds.

 

I'm not too sold on the priest, probably 2 additional SGs would've been better overall, but since I do need an HQ choice, the priest isn't a bad one. If I already have an HQ somewhere else in the army, I'd probably run them without priest.

 

In general, if I run Dante I'll give him SG as mates. He really helps them make back their points. If Dante is not there, i'd stick with DC, they don't need anyone buffing them or protecting them to be cost-effective.

[girot]

Storm Shields = it days "may take" and not "replace with". Does this mean I can get a pistol and melee AND a shield? I have a squad I'd like to give shields to but don't want to have to remodel them.

[Karhedron]

Played a game saturday against nids, had a 9 man DC and a 5 SG. SG run with Dante and a priest.

I have to admit, 5 seems a bit small for an assault unit of SG. If I were running a unit that sized it would probably be equipped with infernus pistols for hunting tanks and MCs. One of the problems with the old SG was always the small squad size.

 

If I were running them as a dedicated CC unit then I would be looking for at least 8 in the unit (possibly 10). I think that the extra 100 points for 3 more bodies would have made the unit a lot more durable in your game.

[SonOfThunder]

Have to agree. I was running 2 podded furiosos. I'll dump them in my next list to buff the SG, and invest in something that synergizes better with the elite jumper units, like Baals or ASM...mobile cover :)

[JamesI]

Storm Shields = it days "may take" and not "replace with". Does this mean I can get a pistol and melee AND a shield? I have a squad I'd like to give shields to but don't want to have to remodel them.

Yes, you can have pistol, melee and shield.

[Calnus]

Do the shields basic rules still say you never get an extra attack for having two weapons though?  So your only real use of having pistol+melee+shield is if you REALLY need that AP2-4 rahter than AP- attack.

 

Or want to run gunslinger, which I feel makes for epic models.  Who cares what good they are on the tabletop, you have dynamic marines with shields slung on and dual pistols.  Rule of Cool hits hard for that one.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Have to agree. I was running 2 podded furiosos. I'll dump them in my next list to buff the SG, and invest in something that synergizes better with the elite jumper units, like Baals or ASM...mobile cover

Bikes are great there because they bring their own cover save with them, and due to their long bases, if you put them sideways they can provide cover for big units even with only a couple guys.

3 bikers, 2 grav guns, attack bike with multimelta will run you a little under 150 pts and synergises well with Sang Guard since the grav guns are Concussive - that will allow your SG to strike before a lot of the big baddies that would otherwise trounce them (like a Black Mace-equiped DP, for example).

[SonOfThunder]

Have to try the bike screen of doom. My regular opponent hates bikes which makes that trick even better!

[depthcharge12]

So I don't have the new dex so I'm running some guesstimations here (please correct me on the new point updates):

 

5 VV (95 points)

+1 more VV (20)

+3 storm shields (30)

+2 power lances (30)

+1 power fist (25)

 

Total is 200 points even?

 

3 guys have SS and chainsword, 2 guys have a lance and BP, sergeant has a fist and BP.

 

I want to run the new FT blood rain formation and the best way is to stick the VV in the storm raven to get them rage, furious charge, and fearless when charging out of the Stormraven. They aren't able to benefit from the +1 I so they hide behind the shields then hit back with 10 S6 AP3 power lance strikes from the two guys (2 base + 2 from rage + extra ccw) in the back and the fist hits last. Not to mention the 12 additional attacks from the shield guys

 

It's a small expensive unit but it has the ability to slay a daemon prince/MC on the charge, which is it's intention. 3 shields soak up, lances and S9 AP2 fist kill.

[Frater Cornelius]

200-ish pts for 6 dudes that die from small arm fire? Not efficient enough.

[SonOfThunder]

In any case, give the fist to someone that cannot be challenged, it's a benefit from being able to give anything to anyone. Sarge can take a shield and then he can hope to eat challenges in case you put another IC in the unit. If you don't plan to join anything to that unit, keep sarge barebones, he's as good as any other in the squad, but he can be singled out.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

200-ish pts for 6 dudes that die from small arm fire? Not efficient enough.

 

Its what the bring to the table, Teminators do the same with less guys and only slightly better saves whilst being allot slower.

 

You have to remember this a your HQ's bunker unit/ Blender unit/ Swiss Army Knife.

[depthcharge12]

The problem is that I'd run them more efficiently, but I can only fit so much in a 1850 point list and the VV are mandatory for the formation.

 

Does the VV sarge still come with a power weapon base or has that changed?

 

So what you're suggesting is:

 

Sarge w/storm shield

2 VV with shields

2 VV with power lances

1 VV with power fist

 

 

I was thinking of putting Mephy into the raven with them (he's in my main detachment) but I already have him in his Deathstar unit of 5 hammernators in a redeemer.

[girot]

We need a Smoke Stack Servitor or something that functions like a Venomthrope.  Having a traveling cover save makes up for more than you'd think.

[depthcharge12]

We need a Smoke Stack Servitor or something that functions like a Venomthrope.  Having a traveling cover save makes up for more than you'd think.

You could technically drive a rhino out in front. It's a poor mans void shield :P and can get decent cover saves from smoke or flat out

[Joasht]

I cannot realistically see the VV as a viable choice this edition. Their base cost is incredibly high (for little reason IMO), and whatever you'd like them to do is likely done better by SG or DC, or even a Command Squad.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I cannot realistically see the VV as a viable choice this edition. Their base cost is incredibly high (for little reason IMO), and whatever you'd like them to do is likely done better by SG or DC, or even a Command Squad.

 

Yeah, only semi-useful thing to do with them is to take a big squad with lots of Stormshields and have them joined by a Sang Priest and go make a pain of themselves for big scary muthas like DPs.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think there's something to the massed storm shields and non-Unwieldy weapons. Not sure if it's worth it, but it is unique.

[JamesI]

I think there's something to the massed storm shields and non-Unwieldy weapons. Not sure if it's worth it, but it is unique.

Shields and claws would work.  Add some meltabombs too.  It could work, but in most circumstances I'd rather have DC or SG.

[depthcharge12]

 

I think there's something to the massed storm shields and non-Unwieldy weapons. Not sure if it's worth it, but it is unique.

 

Shields and claws would work.  Add some meltabombs too.  It could work, but in most circumstances I'd rather have DC or SG.

I'm required to take them for the Flesh Tearer detachment I'm taking, and while I'd like to take a squad larger than 5 I don't have the points and they can do just fine.

 

I have them in an anti MC role (not including ridptides or wraithknights, but I have MephStar for that ;) ) with 3 storm shields, 2 power lances, and a power fist.

 

On the charge from their Stormraven, the two lance guys get 10 S6 AP3 attacks between them to take down the MC, and the fist if needed. Two barebones shield bearers stand in the front to take any blows.

 

Rage, furious charge, and fearless coming out of the raven is awesome :D

[Cronhour]

played a game last night where i used all but the VV and  I love them all. but I think the command squads may be the most surprising. a podded unit broke havocs when they dropped in before getting charged by a 30 man zombie unit, the number of base attacks and fnp mean they do good work and I ended up tarpitting his tarpit and winning every combat before getting wiped after 5 rounds of combat ( and I forgot to roll my Fnp rolls in the first round costing me 3 models)

 

I see myself using assault, command squads and fragiosos as a good base for a pod alpha strike throwing melta, grav, plas, and frag cannons where they can do the most damage. Then you have relentless bolter DC and SG jumping up the table or DOAing in with the second round of pods. Incedently I also used JP DC (relentless bolters and FnP are great on a JP equipped model, they drew stupid amounts of fire) and an 8 man SG unit with a priest, libby and Dante ( 8 ws7 Str7 attacks at I8 on tyhe charge ( could of been 10 at 10 if i hadn't rolled a 1 when casting the primaris made short work of Abbadon and his squad of termies) mulching anything they touched. its easy to forget but the bolters on the SG are quite nice, S4 AP4 assault 2 are not to be sniffed at.

[InquisitorBlack]

IMO Command squads don't have enough 'umph' to justify taking up a whole pod slot. Yes, you get the Sanguinary novitiate, but I'd much rather 10 DC with 5 inferno pistols than 5 veterans with 3 meltaguns. Yes, the DC are a lot more expensive, but first turn pods are a scarce resource. In order to really justify a big alpha strike army the units must be powerful and resilient.

[Deschenus Maximus]

IMO Command squads don't have enough 'umph' to justify taking up a whole pod slot. Yes, you get the Sanguinary novitiate, but I'd much rather 10 DC with 5 inferno pistols than 5 veterans with 3 meltaguns. Yes, the DC are a lot more expensive, but first turn pods are a scarce resource. In order to really justify a big alpha strike army the units must be powerful and resilient.

 

I'd run Command Squads with Jump Packs myself. 3 meltas, 3 storm shields, jump packs. Hunt tanks and get in the way of the big scary stuff.

[Cronhour]

IMO Command squads don't have enough 'umph' to justify taking up a whole pod slot. Yes, you get the Sanguinary novitiate, but I'd much rather 10 DC with 5 inferno pistols than 5 veterans with 3 meltaguns. Yes, the DC are a lot more expensive, but first turn pods are a scarce resource. In order to really justify a big alpha strike army the units must be powerful and resilient.

 

with 5 pods for 3 first turn i think they balance out quite well, for melta i'll always use assault marines as they work better (assault weapons and cheap) but with this codex i think versatility is our greatest strength. 3 plasma guns on 2 base attack troops with fnp and a power weapon are nice. Afterall If i use DC i'm more likely to kit them out for assault than vehicle hunting, why buy 15 point infernus pistols when I'd rater spend points on power fists.

 

IMO Command squads don't have enough 'umph' to justify taking up a whole pod slot. Yes, you get the Sanguinary novitiate, but I'd much rather 10 DC with 5 inferno pistols than 5 veterans with 3 meltaguns. Yes, the DC are a lot more expensive, but first turn pods are a scarce resource. In order to really justify a big alpha strike army the units must be powerful and resilient.

 

I'd run Command Squads with Jump Packs myself. 3 meltas, 3 storm shields, jump packs. Hunt tanks and get in the way of the big scary stuff.

 

 

I can see this as viable. I guess I still think of melta as first strike weaponry so don't consider its long term survivability, I'm more likely to equip them with plas or grav as they still have decent attacks and survivability when charged.

[InquisitorBlack]

Each to their own. I've played enough games to know how easily power armed guys go down to focused fire. If you want a plasma alpha strike, sternguard are straight out better. 

But, this game is not just about spending hours trying to work out what units are precisely more efficient. If you like your command squad, go for it! They certainly look nice, and it's a good way to use some extra sanguinary priest models that in this edition will be gathering a lot of dust!