DC vs. Sanguinary Guard vs. Honor Guard vs. Vanguard Vets

[Morticon]

Been playing with Van Vets a lot recently, and I have to say that after all the initial poo-pooing of these guys, I dont think i'll be going without them in my most competitive lists. 

 

Their hidden strength I believe is in their ability to take JPs and Storm Shields for a total cost of 32ppm. 

 

I am currently rocking a 256pnt squad that has 2x PW (Axe and Maul - on account of my meta), 2x MBs and 4x Shields.  The unit usually rolls with the priest.  

I'm loving them.

The shields just tank so well.

Highly recommended!!

[Charlo]

Been playing with Van Vets a lot recently, and I have to say that after all the initial poo-pooing of these guys, I dont think i'll be going without them in my most competitive lists.

Their hidden strength I believe is in their ability to take JPs and Storm Shields for a total cost of 32ppm.

I am currently rocking a 256pnt squad that has 2x PW (Axe and Maul - on account of my meta), 2x MBs and 4x Shields. The unit usually rolls with the priest.

I'm loving them.

The shields just tank so well.

Highly recommended!!

Really tempted to try a couple of these squads out as a part of the free power weapon formation, that could be even deadlier for the same cost! But that would mean I need to buy/ convert a few models

[Morticon]

Only draw back is you cant skimp on the numbers and you need full squads!!!

But, you're defs making up for it in the PWs ! So, while I pay 256 for 8, with 2PW, 4SS and 2MB, you could pay 260 for 10PW and 4SS!!! Thats nuts.  

[JamesI]

 

 

why not plasma? 24" shots with 3+ and FNP to stop Gets hot, then rapid fire w/in 12". I am not thinking I would use these guys to assault at all unless the opportunity was good. these guys are there to put the type of fire i want wherever my enemy doesnt want it to be, and support the rest of the army while doing it.

 

 

 

I'm also thinking about this unit, jump pack, plasmaguns, storm shields and librarian with divination. Prescience, 3+ and FNP should be enough to keep them safe from overheating. I think it's a costly unit but will be good in a support role, shooting and buffing where needed and claiming mid-field objectives.

 

To represent the storm shields I will get these from FW: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-and-Accessories/SPACE_MARINE_BOARDING_ASSAULT_UPGRADE_SET.html

 

 

My issue with giving this squad plasmaguns is that it stops them from charging. That turns the Company Champion from an asset (or at least not a hindrance) to a tax.

 

This is true.  When I built my command squad, the champion was optional.

Only draw back is you cant skimp on the numbers and you need full squads!!!

But, you're defs making up for it in the PWs ! So, while I pay 256 for 8, with 2PW, 4SS and 2MB, you could pay 260 for 10PW and 4SS!!! Thats nuts.  

But no Red Thirst.  I was planning to do that formation, adding in Corbulo to try to make up for the loss of Red Thirst.

[Deschenus Maximus]

That's true but on the other hand the champion is free compared to the cost in C:SM.

 

Yes but since he isn't doing anything for you anyways, he's actually more of a hindrance even while free, since SM can get another plasmagun guy instead.

 

Look at it from a plasmagun-per-point persepective:

 

A BA CS can get max 3 plasmaguns for a total unit cost of 145 pts. So you get 1 plasmagun per 48.3 pts.

 

A SM CS can get 5 plasmaguns for a total unit cost of 175 pts. So you get 1 plasmagun per 35 pts.

 

Assuming you really want Feel No Pain in your squad, you then have 4 plasmaguns and the Apothecary for 175 pts, giving you 1 plasmagun per 43.75 pts, again coming out ahead of the BA CS even with the free Sang Initiate.

 

When running with melta CS, you make full use out of the whole squad, and are therefor much more efficient.

 

Really, the only thing that really irks me about the CS is the Champion's stupid "must challenge" rule. It often means an inglorious death when he would have been far better off refusing the challenge and letting his Storm Shield-bearing brothers tank the big baddies' damage.

[Emperors Immortals]

The must challenge rule is the major bug in the CSM dex too, its ridiculous.

 

I'm thinking VV, JP and full melts/shields could be a good unit to have running around. Add a AngelsWing Librarian and the squad is even more reliable, with the Libby being able to buff I and A then jump out of there.

 

Can we use the AngelsWing from a Raven if the character lands first?

[Landrick]

 

 

 

Has anyone tried the Command Squad as a mobile gun platform? I am thinking of giving the 3 vets either 3 plasma guns or 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields. They will escort my support librarian, all have JP. Before I make the (financial) investment, I am curious if anyone else has seen it in action, or if it is just a massive points sink

 

Wouldn't want to try it with Plasma, but with melta + storm shield, it seems like a fine unit. Once you factor in the cost of the Champion's power sword, a CS is basicaly a slightly cheaper DC unit without Rage and Fearless BUT with access to full-sized meltas and Storm Shields. So slightly less punchy, but far more survivable against Plasma and MCs, and far more capable at tank killing.

 

I'm surprised I don't see people talk about this unit more.

 

why not plasma? 24" shots with 3+ and FNP to stop Gets hot, then rapid fire w/in 12". I am not thinking I would use these guys to assault at all unless the opportunity was good. these guys are there to put the type of fire i want wherever my enemy doesnt want it to be, and support the rest of the army while doing it.

 

 

I'm also thinking about this unit, jump pack, plasmaguns, storm shields and librarian with divination. Prescience, 3+ and FNP should be enough to keep them safe from overheating. I think it's a costly unit but will be good in a support role, shooting and buffing where needed and claiming mid-field objectives.

 

To represent the storm shields I will get these from FW: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-and-Accessories/SPACE_MARINE_BOARDING_ASSAULT_UPGRADE_SET.html

 

 

Excellent call on the shields!

I haven't played them with this codex, but I have used a command squad with plasmas in the previous codex.  Worked ok, but right now I feel like we can just take the far cheaper 5 man assault squad for the same role.

Interesting... I actually didn't know ASM got Plasma Guns. They are quite a bit cheaper, but of course lack FNP (this also makes shooting plasma more dangerous) and attacks the CS have. Also, without stormshields they can't take as much damage to protect a character.

 

I also just realized, quickening on the Champion could be pretty clutch.

 

Anyone playing any of these builds?

[Deschenus Maximus]

The must challenge rule is the major bug in the CSM dex too, its ridiculous.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be complaining if the Champion could take a Storm Shield... but apparently, Space Marine Chapters really, really hate their Champions...

[BAjim]

Unfortunately doing the tarpit gig is done better and cheaper by Command Squads, who can also double up as tank hunters.

Command squad - jump packs, 3 meltas, 3 storm shields, 3 meltabombs

Great idea!

I have now built and am painting 2 Command Squad models; each with a Meltagun, Storm Shield and Melta Bomb.

I've also built 3 DC with Hand Flamers which fits with the fluff in our new Codex, and Wall of Death is a great deterrent to anyone charging a BA squad with flamers.

Thanks to Electric Paladin for starting this discussion, its really helped me decide what to change to make best use of 7th Ed and our Codex

[Deschenus Maximus]

Great idea!

I have now built and am painting 2 Command Squad models; each with a Meltagun, Storm Shield and Melta Bomb.

Glad you like it brother

[hairojin]

 

That's true but on the other hand the champion is free compared to the cost in C:SM.

 

Yes but since he isn't doing anything for you anyways, he's actually more of a hindrance even while free, since SM can get another plasmagun guy instead.

 

Look at it from a plasmagun-per-point persepective:

 

A BA CS can get max 3 plasmaguns for a total unit cost of 145 pts. So you get 1 plasmagun per 48.3 pts.

 

A SM CS can get 5 plasmaguns for a total unit cost of 175 pts. So you get 1 plasmagun per 35 pts.

 

Assuming you really want Feel No Pain in your squad, you then have 4 plasmaguns and the Apothecary for 175 pts, giving you 1 plasmagun per 43.75 pts, again coming out ahead of the BA CS even with the free Sang Initiate.

 

When running with melta CS, you make full use out of the whole squad, and are therefor much more efficient.

 

Really, the only thing that really irks me about the CS is the Champion's stupid "must challenge" rule. It often means an inglorious death when he would have been far better off refusing the challenge and letting his Storm Shield-bearing brothers tank the big baddies' damage.

 

I definitely see your point if you want a stand alone shooty squad. But as a bodyguard for your warlord he does have uses, accepting Challanges. Especially when playing maelstrom missions sometimes it will be better to charge in and take an objective than to shoot. I'm not saying that I would definitely take him over another plasmagun if he was optional, I'm just saying that he's not always completely useless.

[Exile Noctis]

Only draw back is you cant skimp on the numbers and you need full squads!!!

But, you're defs making up for it in the PWs ! So, while I pay 256 for 8, with 2PW, 4SS and 2MB, you could pay 260 for 10PW and 4SS!!! Thats nuts.  

 

Think it would be worth running the formation and having 5 shields per squad? My thoughts were either spend 50 for shields or attach a priest..

Seriously considering it as it gives a increased chance of the squad to survive after their DS and run in the shooting phase to re-position if need be.

[Frostmourne]

Just to add my very limited two cents here. 

Played my first game with Blood Angels last night, and i lost narrowly on the Maelstrom Card Points, but the actual carnage on the board was about even. But my DC with Jump Packs were slaughtered to a man after two turns, with sheer weight of shots. 

I would love a VanVet squad kitted as above, but for Orks and the like ,the Storm Shield just wont make a difference with 80 odd Burna Hits, youre still going to die. 

So i think some magnetising may be in order hehe. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

I definitely see your point if you want a stand alone shooty squad. But as a bodyguard for your warlord he does have uses, accepting Challanges. Especially when playing maelstrom missions sometimes it will be better to charge in and take an objective than to shoot. I'm not saying that I would definitely take him over another plasmagun if he was optional, I'm just saying that he's not always completely useless.

 

 

That's true but in this day and age, one can rarely afford to expand resources on extraneous stuff that is useful only once in a while. For example, nobody really puts power swords/fists on Tactical Sergeants anymore because the game as moved in a direction that make those just too inefficient in the vast majority of cases.

 

Edit: And I must say I lament this state of affair.

[hairojin]

 

 

I definitely see your point if you want a stand alone shooty squad. But as a bodyguard for your warlord he does have uses, accepting Challanges. Especially when playing maelstrom missions sometimes it will be better to charge in and take an objective than to shoot. I'm not saying that I would definitely take him over another plasmagun if he was optional, I'm just saying that he's not always completely useless.

 

 

That's true but in this day and age, one can rarely afford to expand resources on extraneous stuff that is useful only once in a while. For example, nobody really puts power swords/fists on Tactical Sergeants anymore because the game as moved in a direction that make those just too inefficient in the vast majority of cases.

 

Edit: And I must say I lament this state of affair.

 

 

Are you talking about tournament games or the game in general? I only have limited experience with 7th but in theory I can see a point of putting ccw on sergeants. At least in maelstrom missions where you often have to take an objective with whatever squad that are in best position for the job at he time. Marines don't have the same number of squads as other factions so it seems to me that we might have to make them more all-round. Especially if playing with BSF as we don't get Ob sec and want to increase the chance of breaking our opponent.

 

As I said I haven't played many games with the new rules yet so this is all based on theoryhammer and would like to hear opinions and experiences from others that have had more games.

[girot]

With all of the amazing options we have now via formations there is little point in kitting out Veteran Sergeants if you have the models to field Veteran Squads.  But then one must work with what one has.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Are you talking about tournament games or the game in general? I only have limited experience with 7th but in theory I can see a point of putting ccw on sergeants. At least in maelstrom missions where you often have to take an objective with whatever squad that are in best position for the job at he time. Marines don't have the same number of squads as other factions so it seems to me that we might have to make them more all-round. Especially if playing with BSF as we don't get Ob sec and want to increase the chance of breaking our opponent.

 

As I said I haven't played many games with the new rules yet so this is all based on theoryhammer and would like to hear opinions and experiences from others that have had more games.

 

 

More for tournament games but even in casual, friendly games, Eldar and Tau can run such deadly lists that trying to make our units into more well-rounded just ends up lessening our fighting chance.

[Charlo]

As a quick question for you guys: Do melta-cide 5 man AM squads (2 melta, 2 inferno etc) have JP? Or are they just in a pod instead? Need to know for building tonight

[JamesI]

As a quick question for you guys: Do melta-cide 5 man AM squads (2 melta, 2 inferno etc) have JP? Or are they just in a pod instead? Need to know for building tonight

You can do both. Pod is probably safer, and can show up turn 1.

Packs really want something to reduce scatter, such as Dante as warlord for DOA.

[Xenith]

As a quick question for you guys: Do melta-cide 5 man AM squads (2 melta, 2 inferno etc) have JP? Or are they just in a pod instead? Need to know for building tonight

Depends what turn you want them to come in on. The answer is either, but as J1 says, the jump packs need some reserve manipulation.

[JamesI]

I will say this, I played a game on Monday where my Assault marines with jump packs did not appear until turn 4, and that is with DOA (though to be fair I did not want them until turn 3 based on game scenario).

[Charlo]

Okay, thanks guys! Maybe i'll try magnetizing or if not I'll go for Pods as it gives me an excuse to buy some

[SamaNagol]

Pods are generally the better option

[appiah4]

I kind of feel the dual Infernus Pistol loadout may be a bit overkill, would you really need to sink 3 Melta Bomb's worth of points for a 12" Melta weapon?  How likely are you to use it within Melta range after the initial salvo, especially if  you'll be footslogging it after that?  I'd probably add the second melta pistol only if you'll equip jumppacks on them..

 

Someone more experienced will ridicule me for this in no time though :D

[Karhedron]

It is a question of firepower saturation. A single melta shot from a BS4 model has roughly a 20% to one-shot a vehicle (assuming AV11). The way stats work means that 3 shots will give you roughly a 50% chance of a kill while 4 shots improves it to 60% (no, you don't just add 20% for each extra shot ;)).

 

Of course once you get into 4+ shots you are likely to kill a 3 HP vehicle just through hull point stripping.

 

For me, 4 melta shots is the minimum to reliably kill a vehicle (especially if you are targeting Monoliths or Land Raiders). The extra points are worth it to make sure the squad gets its kill. You are spending 100+ points on a squad that really needs to make its points back with its first salvo because there is a very realistic chance they will not get a second.

 

4 shots gives you a 60% chance of killing any vehicle you target due to a destroyed result. It also gives a very good chance to kill most vehicles due to HP stripping. This is why I regard 4 melta shots in a squad as a minimum for an alpha strike. We need to be able to deal with Monoliths, Land Raiders, Battle Wagons and Knights with at least a reasonable degree of confidence. Fewer shots from a squad makes it too unreliable and that is why I consider the extra points for dual inferno pistols to be worth the cost. If they fail to destroy their designated target then the points you have spent on them are likely to be wasted. Spending the extra points is necessary to ensure the squad can do their job.