DC vs. Sanguinary Guard vs. Honor Guard vs. Vanguard Vets

[Deschenus Maximus]

It is a question of firepower saturation. A single melta shot from a BS4 model has roughly a 20% to one-shot a vehicle (assuming AV11). The way stats work means that 3 shots will give you roughly a 50% chance of a kill while 4 shots improves it to 60% (no, you don't just add 20% for each extra shot ).

Of course once you get into 4+ shots you are likely to kill a 3 HP vehicle just through hull point stripping.

For me, 4 melta shots is the minimum to reliably kill a vehicle (especially if you are targeting Monoliths or Land Raiders). The extra points are worth it to make sure the squad gets its kill. You are spending 100+ points on a squad that really needs to make its points back with its first salvo because there is a very realistic chance they will not get a second.

4 shots gives you a 60% chance of killing any vehicle you target due to a destroyed result. It also gives a very good chance to kill most vehicles due to HP stripping. This is why I regard 4 melta shots in a squad as a minimum for an alpha strike. We need to be able to deal with Monoliths, Land Raiders, Battle Wagons and Knights with at least a reasonable degree of confidence. Fewer shots from a squad makes it too unreliable and that is why I consider the extra points for dual inferno pistols to be worth the cost. If they fail to destroy their designated target then the points you have spent on them are likely to be wasted. Spending the extra points is necessary to ensure the squad can do their job.

Reading your post just crystalised my dislike of meltacide squads. I honestly just don't think they are that good because outside of Knights and maybe Leman Russes, how many really good, expensive vehicles are there? Wave Serpents don't really care about meltacide due to 3+ jink and the serpent shield so what else is left, really?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

It is a question of firepower saturation. A single melta shot from a BS4 model has roughly a 20% to one-shot a vehicle (assuming AV11). The way stats work means that 3 shots will give you roughly a 50% chance of a kill while 4 shots improves it to 60% (no, you don't just add 20% for each extra shot ).

Of course once you get into 4+ shots you are likely to kill a 3 HP vehicle just through hull point stripping.

For me, 4 melta shots is the minimum to reliably kill a vehicle (especially if you are targeting Monoliths or Land Raiders). The extra points are worth it to make sure the squad gets its kill. You are spending 100+ points on a squad that really needs to make its points back with its first salvo because there is a very realistic chance they will not get a second.

4 shots gives you a 60% chance of killing any vehicle you target due to a destroyed result. It also gives a very good chance to kill most vehicles due to HP stripping. This is why I regard 4 melta shots in a squad as a minimum for an alpha strike. We need to be able to deal with Monoliths, Land Raiders, Battle Wagons and Knights with at least a reasonable degree of confidence. Fewer shots from a squad makes it too unreliable and that is why I consider the extra points for dual inferno pistols to be worth the cost. If they fail to destroy their designated target then the points you have spent on them are likely to be wasted. Spending the extra points is necessary to ensure the squad can do their job.

Reading your post just crystalised my dislike of meltacide squads. I honestly just don't think they are that good because outside of Knights and maybe Leman Russes, how many really good, expensive vehicles are there? Wave Serpents don't really care about meltacide due to 3+ jink and the serpent shield so what else is left, really?

Personally its all about getting rid of Riptides and Defilers and any other big AP2 or AP3 blast on turn 1.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Personally its all about getting rid of Riptides and Defilers and any other big AP2 or AP3 blast on turn 1.

 

 

Riptides aren't going to die to meltacide, and Defilers... well, who brings Defilers nowadays?

[Karhedron]

 

Riptides aren't going to die to meltacide, and Defilers... well, who brings Defilers nowadays?

 

 

Yup, massed grav or plasma are more effective against MCs, of course getting stuff close to a tooled-up Riptide is not the easiest of challenges. I think that Deep Striking a squad with the Angels Wing is one possibility but which one. I cannot think of a JP squad that has the firepower to seriously threaten a Riptide. Sure they can charge a turn later but then the Riptide will have a chance to fire at them normally in its firing phase.

 

The closest I can think of is a large VanVet squad with Stormshields and fists/hammers. Add a character with the Wing to minimise interceptor (probably a Priest for added FNP). Land near the Riptide and watch him squirm as he tries to decide whether to intercept on a 6 or save his firepower for his own turn. In the shooting phase, run in order to minimise the casualties from the Ion Accelerator template. Then suck up the Tau player's turn of firing, trusting your 3++ and FNP to keep most of the squad alive. On your next turn, charge in and do the job.

 

Of course this setup probably costs more than a Riptide and will not take it down until Turn 3 at the earliest (unless you have a formation that allows you to start your reserve rolls on turn 1).

 

Maybe just pod in some Hammernators on turn 1 and rely on spacing and 2+/3++ saves to keep enough of them alive until they can charge.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Or you know... grav bikes

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

 

Personally its all about getting rid of Riptides and Defilers and any other big AP2 or AP3 blast on turn 1.

 

 

Riptides aren't going to die to meltacide, and Defilers... well, who brings Defilers nowadays?

 

My friend who fields an Emperor's Children army...Because you can't have enough AP3 or AP2 blast weapons to get rid of every marine on the table...

[Deschenus Maximus]

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

[ThatOneMarshal]

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

Why take either when when you can ally in a soul grinder or rapier or a leman russ squadon from IA 13. 

 

Also what does the angels wrath intervention force do? I hear it refrenced quite a lot.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

Why take either when when you can ally in a soul grinder or rapier or a leman russ squadon from IA 13. 

 

Also what does the angels wrath intervention force do? I hear it refrenced quite a lot.

 

requires: 1 vanguard squad and 2 assault squads, all with jump packs

The entire formation enters from reserves together

Perks: Vanguard lands first and if the first model of either assault squad is 6" from the vanguards the squads don't scatter

also, enemy models take a S4 AP- hit for each squad that is 6" from them. And every enemy model hit this way moves as if in difficult terrain on the opponent's turn.

[knife&fork]

I have these amazing mk2 veterans sitting in my bitz-box, but the wargear combos are really suboptimal (plasma pistols everywhere) ...

 

http://i.imgur.com/p0hIeOb.jpg?1

 

I've circled the arms that are attached to the bodies. 

 

What's the best I can do with simple arm swaps? 

[JamesI]

Are you willing to cut the plasma pistols out?  I would mix in some storm shields.  But other than that, light on the upgrades. 

[knife&fork]

No, cutting those off is a little more work than I'm prepared to do for these guys. 

[LutherMax]

3 bikers, 2 grav guns, attack bike with multimelta will run you a little under 150 pts and synergises well with Sang Guard since the grav guns are Concussive - that will allow your SG to strike before a lot of the big baddies that would otherwise trounce them (like a Black Mace-equiped DP, for example).

Concussive is only in effect until "the following Assault phase", so if you wound in the Shooting phase will it still be in effect in the Assault phase?

 

Edit: it's end of the following Assault phase. I misread the rule. That's a nice little tactic :)

[shandwen]

The meltacide squad often does not have a great atrget for the melta shots.  When it does it can do a wonder first turn, but when it doesn't it can still be used as crowd control and to pin the enemy in.  The opponent will often be forced to act on that squad, and ignore whatever else you are doing.  To say that because it wont have it's prefered target avialable every game it is a bad choice to to be ignorant of the game.  It's main objective is to take control of the momentum in the game rather than table the opponent.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I ran Sanguinary Guard ever since the 5th edition book came out and while they were greatly over-priced I always thought they were a cool and hard-hitting unit - now I run a 10man with Dante and Priest and I just love them to death.

 

Don't forget that with the banner they get that extra attack; and if Dante is tagging along you don't need to take death-masks. I'm going to start fielding some VV and I'll always love the DC but in this book, the Sanguinary Guard are just the top for me and my friends are all adequately scared of them now too haha.

[Xenith]

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

 

Why play chaos when Blood Angel Vindicators are better? Why play Blood Angels when Serpent Spam is apparently better?

 

K&F - It shouldn't be too much work to just cut the whole offending pistol hand off. Most weapons these days come with new hands attached anyway!

[appiah4]

I have these amazing mk2 veterans sitting in my bitz-box, but the wargear combos are really suboptimal (plasma pistols everywhere) ...

 

http://i.imgur.com/p0hIeOb.jpg?1

 

I've circled the arms that are attached to the bodies. 

 

What's the best I can do with simple arm swaps? 

 

1. Amputate the pistol hands at the wrists. 

2. Drill into the arm and glue magnets in place.

3. ???

4. Profit

[SamaNagol]

Defiitely cut them off at the wrist. It's not hard work at all.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Why take either when when you can ally in a soul grinder or rapier or a leman russ squadon from IA 13. 

 

Opportunity costs.

 

The meltacide squad often does not have a great atrget for the melta shots.  When it does it can do a wonder first turn, but when it doesn't it can still be used as crowd control and to pin the enemy in.  The opponent will often be forced to act on that squad, and ignore whatever else you are doing.  To say that because it wont have it's prefered target avialable every game it is a bad choice to to be ignorant of the game.  It's main objective is to take control of the momentum in the game rather than table the opponent.

 

If you don't have a good target, you're not gaining the momentum; you're just delivering some targets within rapid-fire range of the rest of my army. Thanks?

 

 

Why play chaos when Blood Angel Vindicators are better? Why play Blood Angels when Serpent Spam is apparently better?

 

 

Because you have a Chaos army? You could do count-as Blood Angels though, I guess.

[Xenith]

Why play chaos when Blood Angel Vindicators are better? Why play Blood Angels when Serpent Spam is apparently better?

Because you have a Chaos army? You could do count-as Blood Angels though, I guess.

That doesn't really correlate with what you said before:

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

What if they have a defiler and no vindicator?

You cannot justify using a chaos army over an (arguably more powerful) Eldar army because that is what the player has, then criticise the use of a defiler (which the player has) on the basis of vindicators being better. The two concepts are diametrically opposed.

I just hate to see people being told point blank not to use certain units at all, because it is the opinion of the internet. It's so very black and white in a game that is every shade of grey.

Obviously, if they are using defilers they are not playing top table tournament games with or without a WAAC mentality. That much should be obvious from the information, so it's kind of pointless and harmful to tell people they're doing their hobby wrong.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Why play chaos when Blood Angel Vindicators are better? Why play Blood Angels when Serpent Spam is apparently better?

Because you have a Chaos army? You could do count-as Blood Angels though, I guess.

That doesn't really correlate with what you said before:

Why take Defilers when Vindicators are in the same spot?

What if they have a defiler and no vindicator?

You cannot justify using a chaos army over an (arguably more powerful) Eldar army because that is what the player has, then criticise the use of a defiler (which the player has) on the basis of vindicators being better. The two concepts are diametrically opposed.

I just hate to see people being told point blank not to use certain units at all, because it is the opinion of the internet. It's so very black and white in a game that is every shade of grey.

Obviously, if they are using defilers they are not playing top table tournament games with or without a WAAC mentality. That much should be obvious from the information, so it's kind of pointless and harmful to tell people they're doing their hobby wrong.

If we're going to be discussing suboptimal lists, then there's little point in really trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

And my point stands. Its one thing to build your Chaos army to have the better options (Vindi over Defiler), it's an entirely different thing altogether to just play a completely different army (Eldar over Chaos).

[Shaezus]

I used a meltacide pod squad in a competitive tourny this weekend and they were great. Despite some totally smelly to-hit rolls, which quite frankly would affect any unit you take for the job, they still took out a wave serpent in two of the games, got a stunned and weapon destroyed result in two other games - yes bad dice all over, but again this does not discriminate between different units, and massacred a command squad in the other game where the oppo had no vehicles. So they do exactly what they are made for and can smash TEQ just as well. If their dice had been fair, they would have been truly admirable.

 

As for Sanguinary Guard, they are without doubt a fearsome and highly competitive unit. But they are not for an over-cautious commander, nor may they fit with certain lists. As the backbone of a balanced army with an aggressive style however, they are supreme.

[Karhedron]

I used a meltacide pod squad in a competitive tourny this weekend and they were great. Despite some totally smelly to-hit rolls, which quite frankly would affect any unit you take for the job, they still took out a wave serpent in two of the games, got a stunned and weapon destroyed result in two other games - yes bad dice all over, but again this does not discriminate between different units, and massacred a command squad in the other game where the oppo had no vehicles.

 

Out of interest, what weapons were they equipped with?

[Shaezus]

Two meltaguns, gunslinger sarge with two inferno pistols.

[Cronhour]

I used a meltacide pod squad in a competitive tourny this weekend and they were great. Despite some totally smelly to-hit rolls, which quite frankly would affect any unit you take for the job, they still took out a wave serpent in two of the games, got a stunned and weapon destroyed result in two other games - yes bad dice all over, but again this does not discriminate between different units, and massacred a command squad in the other game where the oppo had no vehicles. So they do exactly what they are made for and can smash TEQ just as well. If their dice had been fair, they would have been truly admirable.

As for Sanguinary Guard, they are without doubt a fearsome and highly competitive unit. But they are not for an over-cautious commander, nor may they fit with certain lists. As the backbone of a balanced army with an aggressive style however, they are supreme.

My melta has whiffed terrible as well but they're actually pretty great for board control, tell people you have 4 melta in a pod and they get nervous, make that two or three and they get really protective of certain things very quickly.