Legendary Marksmen And Issodon

[Shas Oh Dear]

As far as I can tell, Issodon's unique bolter Malice can fire 4 rending shots when using Legendary Marksman. Is this correct?

[librisrouge]

Issodon's rules for Malice lets it take advantage of the Legendary Marksmanship rule but nothing in it lets it get around the conversion to Heavy 1 weapon when gaining rending. Sorry.

[Shas Oh Dear]

The legendary Marksmen rule specifies that it uses heavy 1 instead of rapid fire or pistol. As a salvo weapon wouldn't Malice be exempt?

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

The legendary Marksmen rule specifies that it uses heavy 1 instead of rapid fire or pistol. As a salvo weapon wouldn't Malice be exempt?

Nope. The LM rile states that the heavy 1 *profile* replaces the weapon's usual rules. So heavy 1 replaces salvo 4.

[Shas Oh Dear]

"When using this rule, all boltguns, combi-weapons used as boltguns and bolt pistols fired are counted as being Heavy 1 weapons instead of Rapid Fire or Pistol type weapons for that turn"

 

That's the rule word for word.

 

It specifically states what weapons are affected and what weapon profiles change but doesn't mention Malice or salvo at all.

[Valkyrion]

If you want to try that then go ahead, but don't be surprised if someone then says 'well, Malice isn't a boltgun, combi weapon used as a boltgun or a bolt pistol', because it's not. It's 'Malice'.

 

As you say, it specifically states which weapons are affected and Malice isn't listed amongst them.

[Shas Oh Dear]

Right, these points will be preceded by direct quotes from the rules.

"Malice also benefits from the Chapter Tactics (Raptors) special rules for boltgun fire"

So it specifies that Malice is affected.

The first part of that rule is as follows

"Any unit with this special rule that does not move in the Movement phase of their turn may choose to gain the Rending special rule when firing in the Shooting phase of that turn with boltguns, combi-weapons fired as boltguns or bolt pistols"

So Malice becomes rending at this point of the rule.

The second part of that rule is what I posted above where it specifies that it becomes heavy 1 instead of rapid fire or pistol. Malice is neither of these things. If the sentence had stopped at heavy 1 there would be no issue but "instead of" narrows it down to whatever comes next in the sentence.

So far I've played Issodon firing 1 rending shot because when I read the lm rule I went away thinking they get rending but the gun becomes heavy 1 like had been said here. After rereading the rules above I feel like I've cheated myself out of three shots a turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's Heavy 1.

 

You can't claim that section doesn't apply as Malice isn't Rapid Fire or Pistol.  Malice is also not a Boltgun (and the rest), yet you're happy to ignore that as we're told that the rule (in full) applies to Malice.  Regardles of it not satisfying the usual requirements (Bolter/etc, Rapid Fire/Pistol).

 

If it Rends, it's Heavy 1.

[Shas Oh Dear]

It does satisfy the rule in full, wherever it says boltgun it also means Malice because that's what Malices rule says. Boltgun fire gains rending while stationary, Malice becomes rending while stationary. When it says Boltguns become heavy 1 instead of rapid fire, Malice can't change from rapid fire to anything because it isn't rapid fire.

 

Just ignoring the part where it specifically states which weapon types are replaced isn't a convincing counter argument. I am perfectly happy for it to be heavy 1, that's how I've been playing it up to now but I was hoping someone could save me from the nagging feeling of leaving 3 shots on the table by giving me some sort of evidence that contradicts what those rules say as written. Instead I get several people just popping in to leave one comment that just ignores the points I've put across and say it's heavy 1 because... it's heavy 1. Circular reasoning works because... etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Just ignoring the part where it specifically states which weapon types are replaced isn't a convincing counter argument.

 

But ignoring the part where it states only Boltguns/etc can rend is ok?

 

I don't understand how it can work both ways.

[Brother Casman]

"Malice also benefits from the Chapter Tactics (Raptors) special rules for boltgun fire"

[snip]

 

Perhaps looking at this from another angle might help. To me this phrase can also be read as the following: "for the purposes of Chapter Tactics (Raptors), pretend Malice is a boltgun." So, instead of copy/pasting Malice into the text of the Chapter Tactics, we can just replace Malice with "boltgun". Since boltguns are rapid fire, everything works nicely. Malice thus changes from a salvo weapon to a rapid fire weapon (briefly) then finally to a heavy 1 weapon with rending.