Sanguinary Priests in Successor Chapters

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, so the scuttle butt around the campfire is that the Carmine Blades were gifted with a cadre of Sanguinary Priests after they discovered their ties to the Blood Angels. Now, I'm assuming their station means they are carrying the blood of Sanguinius.

 

Then in opposition, the Flesh Tearers, who are a Second Founding Chapter, only have Apothecaries.

 

So would it be agreeable in theory that not all BA-sired Chapters have actual Sanguinary Priests? And would it seem plausible that they all have the Blood of Sanguinius, or would you say it differs from Chapter to Chapter on what their actual role and function is?

[Quixus]

Where does it say that Flesh Tearers have Apothecaries instead of Sanguinary Priests?

[Kol Saresk]

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

[Sun Reaver]

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all.

I'd have to go back through Beneath the Flesh, but the term "Sanguinary Priest" appears nowhere in Sons of Burden and I am more than confident that is repeated in the previously written Beneath the Flesh.

 

That said, yes Sanguinary Priests are the apothecaries. However, one of the things I'm wondering about is what exactly separates the Sanguinary Priests from Apothecaries. Fluffwise obviously. Is it as long as they carry the Blood? Is it as long as they perform some "sacred" duty outside of their obligations as an apothecary? Or is it only as long as the Chapter wishes for them to be known as Sanguinary Priests? Or is it some mixture of all the above?

[Quixus]

Sanguinary Priests do indeed have more responsibilities than apothecaries:

The Blood Angels Primarch foresaw the shadow of death that would come to nestle in his scions' hearts - though he knew not how it would descend - and judged that constant guidance would be needed to put this darkness to proper use. So did he transform the Legion's Apothecaries into Sanguinary Priests, setting them as high in honour as the Chaplains of the Reclusiam, and as vital to the spiritual guidance of the Blood Angels.

Whilst the sermons and ceremonies of the Chapter's Chaplains exhort their Battle-Brothers to reject the anger within, those performed by the Sanguinary Priests call upon the Blood Angels to embrace the Red Thirst and wrest it to their control; unleashing its strength to buttress theirs when the day is darkest and the battle goes ill.

[Sun Reaver]

 

 

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all.

I'd have to go back through Beneath the Flesh, but the term "Sanguinary Priest" appears nowhere in Sons of Burden and I am more than confident that is repeated in the previously written Beneath the Flesh.

 

That said, yes Sanguinary Priests are the apothecaries. However, one of the things I'm wondering about is what exactly separates the Sanguinary Priests from Apothecaries. Fluffwise obviously. Is it as long as they carry the Blood? Is it as long as they perform some "sacred" duty outside of their obligations as an apothecary? Or is it only as long as the Chapter wishes for them to be known as Sanguinary Priests? Or is it some mixture of all the above?

 

 

From what I know, besides fulfilling the normal duties of an apothecary, the Sanguinary Priests are also held to a higher esteem, equal to the Chaplains. They are constantly monitoring the genetic flaw of the chapter and are also searching for a cure. In battle they are also able to enhance their brother's abilities, through their relics and speech, by calling upon the marines to embrace the red thirst in a controlled fashion. They also carry the blood of the primarch in their veins and help with induction rituals. 

 

Warhammer 40k Wiki states the following: 

 

 

 

Sanguinary Priests are both medics and mystics, for they are called upon to counsel the Battle-Brothers of their Chapter in regards to the Flaw, to preach how it might be overcome, or, when needed, harnessed. While it is the task of the Blood Angels' Chaplains to guard for the onset of the Black Rage, it is the duty of the Sanguinary Priests to guide the brethren through the worst excesses of the Red Thirst, and to remain noble and pure throughout. The Sanguinary Priests call upon the Blood Angels to embrace the Red Thirst and wrest it to their control; unleashing its strength to buttress theirs when the day is darkest and the battle goes ill.

 

So to answer your questions, it is definitely a mixture of all. 

[Kol Saresk]

So do the Successors have access to the Blood as well? Or is it a case by case basis?

[GrandMagnus]

But command squads have an apothecary and the sanguinary priets is an independant character right? So wouldnt that mean that sanguinary priests are the senior members of the apothecarion?

[Kol Saresk]

But command squads have an apothecary and the sanguinary priets is an independant character right? So wouldnt that mean that sanguinary priests are the senior members of the apothecarion?

That's a decent portion of why I'm asking. We have a general idea of how they behave in the Blood Angels Chapter. But what about the Successors? Would they behave the same way in every Successor? Or do people(the fanbase) believe there will be variance among the Successors?

[JamesI]

But command squads have an apothecary and the sanguinary priets is an independant character right? So wouldnt that mean that sanguinary priests are the senior members of the apothecarion?

The codex still calls the apothecary in the command squad a Sanguinary Novitiate.  So the priests are senior members, the junior members are in the command squads,

[Quixus]

Now that name actually makes sense. The novitiate has to go through being the medic for the command squad to become a leader in his own right. In the previous codex the nomenclature made less sense. It seemed that the less experienced member would go into a command function whereas the veterans are stuck with fixing up the grunts.

[Sun Reaver]

So do the Successors have access to the Blood as well? Or is it a case by case basis?

 

I would believe they all had access to it at one point. When Sanguinius died, the priests of the legion ingested his blood to keep his bloodline going in their blood ritual. When the legion broke up, I would assume that the priests were divided equally among the successors and brought along their traditions as well as developing new ones. 

 

 

But command squads have an apothecary and the sanguinary priets is an independant character right? So wouldnt that mean that sanguinary priests are the senior members of the apothecarion?

That's a decent portion of why I'm asking. We have a general idea of how they behave in the Blood Angels Chapter. But what about the Successors? Would they behave the same way in every Successor? Or do people(the fanbase) believe there will be variance among the Successors?

 

 

I believe an apothecary is called a Sanguinary Priest. If you are a novitiate, you are still learning and therefore are attached to command squads. Sanguinary Priests are independent characters because they hold a higher position of esteem and leadership in their chapter, similar to a Chaplain. 

 

In terms of successor chapters, I believe some, like the Blood Drinkers and Angels Sanguine, are very similar to the Blood Angels. Others like the Flesh Tearers or Lamenters may do things very differently. For example, I don't think either chapter has a Sanguinary Guard. Even the new guys, the Carmine Blades, probably do things very differently as they just received a cadre of Sanguinary Priests to train their own chapter in the ways of the Blood Angels. I doubt they have a Sanguinary Guard as well. 

[Lucien Eilam]

Okay, so the scuttle butt around the campfire is that the Carmine Blades were gifted with a cadre of Sanguinary Priests after they discovered their ties to the Blood Angels. Now, I'm assuming their station means they are carrying the blood of Sanguinius.

 

It says they have a newly formed order of Sanguinary Priests. It doesn't say they were gifted with them. They could have given their existing Apothecarion additional training.

 

Others like the Flesh Tearers or Lamenters may do things very differently. For example, I don't think either chapter has a Sanguinary Guard.

 

The Badab War, Volume 1 says of the Lamenters:

 

Certainly the Chapter does retain at least a few cherished examples of Sanguinary relics such as the Glaives Encarmine and Angelus pattern weapons […]

 

and:

 

[…] their Sanguinary Priesthood (which takes the role of the Chapter’s Apothecarion) holds a particularly prominent role and is known by them as the Calix.

 

Aesthetics and supply issues aside, they seem to have everything the Blood Angels do.

 

The old Codex said:

 

The successor Chapters invariably maintain a Sanguinary Guard and Death Company of their own, following the same colour schemes as those laid down by the Blood Angels. The only exception are the Angels Encarmine, who adorn both these specialist units in alabaster white armour […]

 

(my emphasis)

[Quixus]

That last quote unfortunately does not speak of a Sanguinary Priesthood. If it did the case would be closed.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Okay, so the scuttle butt around the campfire is that the Carmine Blades were gifted with a cadre of Sanguinary Priests after they discovered their ties to the Blood Angels. Now, I'm assuming their station means they are carrying the blood of Sanguinius.

It says they have a newly formed order of Sanguinary Priests. It doesn't say they were gifted with them. They could have given their existing Apothecarion additional training.

Okay, like I said, I was working off of the hearsay which is/was "they were given some". Although this would mean that their Priests probably don't carry the Blood then, right? Or at least the potential for such an example?

 

The old Codex said:

 

The successor Chapters invariably maintain a Sanguinary Guard and Death Company of their own, following the same colour schemes as those laid down by the Blood Angels. The only exception are the Angels Encarmine, who adorn both these specialist units in alabaster white armour […]

(my emphasis)

Interestingly enough, there are no mention of the Sanguinary Priests, which is definitely helping to support my theory that their existence and subsequent role are likely to vary from Chapter to Chapter depending on its traditions. For example, a Chapter that recently just discovered its true origins might be zealous in its attempts to emulate the Progenitor Chapter, while a Second Founding Chapter that has a history of strained relations with the First Founding until recently might only have a few traditions.

 

And Sun Reaver does have justification in believing the Flesh Tearers wouldn't have Sanguinary Guard, mostly because we have yet to see them in the BL works and we haven't seen them in Flesh tearer colors. Heck, if it wasn't for that one throw away line, I doubt there'd be too many people who would think of it. The two concepts seemt o be opposing ideals after all.

 

That said, where are they and why haven't we seen them? Are their numbers so small that Seth would rather have his company champion that to deal with the Sanguinary Guard?

[Lucien Eilam]

That last quote unfortunately does not speak of a Sanguinary Priesthood. If it did the case would be closed.

 

I know, I was replying to the suggestion that the Flesh Tearers and Lamenters do things differently and don't have Sanguinary Guard.

[Entei]

 

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all. 

 

 

I'm afraid this is correct.

 

 "Nisroc touched his narthecium in emphasis. The Sanguinary Priest’s gleaming white armour was in stark contrast to the deep crimson and black worn by Maion and the others." (from Beneath the Flesh)

 

And even if Andy Smillie's Gabriel Seth scorns the Sanguinary Guard, it doesn't mean that the Flesh Tearers has never made use of a squad of them. I think it is intentionally left ambiguous as to not restrict a Flesh Tearers-player's collection.

[Lucien Eilam]

Personally, I start from the position that successors are like their parent Chapter except where we're told they're not, rather than vice versa. We're told to use the codex to represent them, not to use only the bits of the codex that we have confirmation they can use from some other source. I mean, I'm pretty sure they've never published anything where a Flesh Tearer has a grav pistol, but I wouldn't wait for them to publish a story or photo of one before I felt able to use it.
 

I mean, if you want a successor that does things differently, go for it, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that the canon Chapters do anything differently at all.

 

Although this would mean that their Priests probably don't carry the Blood then, right? Or at least the potential for such an example?

 

Well, presumably the Blood Angels would have to pass on that tradition after Astorath discovered them. They wouldn't know what to do on their own. And Sanguinary Priests carry the Blood because they drink from the Red Grail upon induction. So they could just have them do that.
 

Interestingly enough, there are no mention of the Sanguinary Priests, which is definitely helping to support my theory that their existence and subsequent role are likely to vary from Chapter to Chapter depending on its traditions.

 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
 

A couple more examples:

 
Beneath the Flesh featured a Flesh Tearers Sanguinary Priest:
 

That should be time enough to retrieve their gene-seed,’ Nisroc touched his narthecium in emphasis. The Sanguinary Priest’s gleaming white armour was in stark contrast to the deep crimson and black worn by Maion and the others.

 

and Immortalis mentions them:

 

 

The Chapter’s Sanguinary Priests and Techmarines had interred me within the adamantium womb of a Dreadnought.

 

Death of Integrity features Blood Drinkers Sanguinary Priests and Guard:
 

Only the strikeforce’s Sanguinary Priests and Chaplains stood apart, all four armoured and bearing their marks of office; crozius and chalices gleamed in the chamber’s febrile light.

 

Through the doors came two further Sanguinary Guard, resplendent in golden armour, their faces masks of Sanguinius.

 

So that's confirmed examples of Sanguinary Priests for the Lamenters, Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers and Carmine Blades at least, confirmed examples of Sanguinary Guard for the Lamenters and Blood Drinkers, and multiple statements that every Successor has Sanguinary Guard and Death Company wearing the same colours as the Blood Angels except one Chapter who wear white.

 

And Sun Reaver does have justification in believing the Flesh Tearers wouldn't have Sanguinary Guard, mostly because we have yet to see them in the BL works and we haven't seen them in Flesh tearer colors.

 
The codex said they have them and that they wear the same colours as the Blood Angels. It also stated "Azkaellon made certain that their legacy was maintained, not just in the Blood Angels, but in every Successor Chapter". For me, that trumps "well I've never seen one".

For what it's worth, Matt Sprange, the guy who wrote their Index Astartes article and basically invented their current (post-Rogue Trader) incarnation, has Sanguinary Guard in his Flesh Tearers army: http://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/flesh-tearers/

 

There was a staff Flesh Tearers staff army in White Dwarf I think last year too. I seem to remember it was a reversed red and black scheme rather than gold.
 

That said, where are they and why haven't we seen them? Are their numbers so small that Seth would rather have his company champion that to deal with the Sanguinary Guard?

 

I think we need to make a distinction between having a tradition of doing something, and having the present ability to do it. The Flesh Tearers are degrading so fast that they can't even maintain a separate 1st Company.

[Entei]

Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the Crusade of Fire campaign book that the Flesh Tearers do use a Sanguinary Guard. Although I can't say for certain since I don't own it myself.

[Lucien Eilam]

Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the Crusade of Fire campaign book that the Flesh Tearers do use a Sanguinary Guard. Although I can't say for certain since I don't own it myself.

 

Good catch - it was Andrew Kenrick's army, shown on page 34. Standard red and black Flesh Tearers scheme. No fluff reference and only a (Studio) staffer's army, but it is in an official supplement.

[Spinsanity]

Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the Crusade of Fire campaign book that the Flesh Tearers do use a Sanguinary Guard. Although I can't say for certain since I don't own it myself.

Just checked and you're right, the FT force featured in there does include some Sanguinary Guard, although they are in Red&Blqck Tearers colors rather than the traditional gold...

 

+ Edit : Ninja'd, guess it took longer for me to dig that book out than it took for Brother Eilam ;)

[Aqui]

Most interestingly for me, the entry for the Carmine Blades states:

 

"Renamed the Carmine Blades, these successors have accepted the Blood Angels' traditions only grudgingly."

 

Seems that the Chapter has definite mixed feelings on more recent events; relief that they finally understand what is happening to them, but are not happy that their parent Chapter is now changing how they do things...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all.

I'm afraid this is correct.

 

"Nisroc touched his narthecium in emphasis. The Sanguinary Priest’s gleaming white armour was in stark contrast to the deep crimson and black worn by Maion and the others." (from Beneath the Flesh)

 

And even if Andy Smillie's Gabriel Seth scorns the Sanguinary Guard, it doesn't mean that the Flesh Tearers has never made use of a squad of them. I think it is intentionally left ambiguous as to not restrict a Flesh Tearers-player's collection.

Thank you for taking the time to dig that up.

[Entei]

 

 

 

Beneath the Flesh and Sons of Burden. Nisroc is referred to as an Apothecary, not a Sanguinary Priest.

 

I believe the terms are used interchangeably by the author. A Sanguinary Priest is an apothecary for the Blood Angels after all.

I'm afraid this is correct.

 

"Nisroc touched his narthecium in emphasis. The Sanguinary Priest’s gleaming white armour was in stark contrast to the deep crimson and black worn by Maion and the others." (from Beneath the Flesh)

 

And even if Andy Smillie's Gabriel Seth scorns the Sanguinary Guard, it doesn't mean that the Flesh Tearers has never made use of a squad of them. I think it is intentionally left ambiguous as to not restrict a Flesh Tearers-player's collection.

Thank you for taking the time to dig that up.

 

T'was nothing, I actually just searched for "sanguinary priest" in the Trial by Blood Ebook. :)