skeletoro Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Just thought I would put this out there. Sorry about the erratic caps. It's a bug or hardware issue with my touchscreen. In light of the new codex, are thunderwolves no longer top dog? Do Baal detachment death company jump infantry knock them off their perch? Let me get this straight: they cost A WoLf GUaRD PLUS A MELTA BOMb, ANd CAn HAVE 5 I5 WS4 S5 Ap- attacks each on the charge? Obviously a thunder wolf is better than a single DC marine but that points COsT DIFFERENCE Is vast. From another angle, what do blood angels have that we'd like to ally for? Their primaris is nice. Sanguinary priests seem fairly nice as a source of FNP. What else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 You better be afraid BA is one of the very few codecies where I have to say that they do better without allies (except smaller ones like Assassins). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3889868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarog Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 a few of the guys from my gaming club play BA, we have one more club before christmas then after that i should be start getting to grips with my wolves i think so i'll let you know what kind of abuse i receive and which of their stuff is most effective (points wise etc). as i've only played one of them so far and that was a few months back and he destroyed my old silver skulls chapter pretty much single handedly with an invisible lib dread!! sad times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3889909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 You will be happy to hear that Libby Dread won't be taken as often anymore and that BA have no access to Telepathy. But there is a very deadly tactic they can do now. A lot of them actually, but I already found my favourite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3889927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 Just running some quick fractions in my head while driving. For the cost of one TWC, you get almost two jump DC. On the charge (assuming no HoW) their ~9 attacks will deal on average 3/4 of a wound to TWC (that's 3/8 of a model) at i5. The (COF) TWC's return attacks, multiplied by (1-3/8 =5/8 for damage sustained) will deal roughly 8/9* 5/8 = 5/9 wounds back to the death company (for the points, they only have about 1.8 wounds so that's about 5/16 of the total lost, vs the death company's 6/16.) So with these assumptions (dc get charge but no hammer of wrath, have jump packs, no other upgrades, but strike at i5) and dealing only in mean damage (and ignoring overkill and other skewing factors) the DC come out slightly ahead. However, if the combat continues another round, the TWC will most likely come out on top, by quite a significant margin. Why? Well the DC are now only getting roughly 6 attacks each, hitting at i5, wounding on 5s. Meanwhile the TWC maintain much the same combat effectiveness (they lose just one attack). Another thing worth noting is that this is a scenario that favours the DC quite a bit. However, if the TWC get the charge (which they ought to be able to do a fair bit of the time) the TWC don't just come out slightly ahead, they come out a lot ahead. Moreover, my hunch is that upgrade options favour the TWC dramatically. Assuming that death company pay the same cost for their special weapons, a TWC can take a storm shield for the same price a DC can take a power sword. But that storm shield is protecting 2 wounds while the power sword only enhances 1 model's attacks. So an arms race of i5 power weapons vs storm shields is a losing proposition for the death company. Similarly, s9 power fists would be thwarted by storm shields - that single model would cause 1/3 more wounds but at a high points cost and once again, it's just one guy's 4 attacks vs the two wounds on a TWC. And say byebye to that i5 perk. Probably not worth it all in all. Meanwhile, a thunder wolf with a power fist negates FnP and doesn't care about unwieldy as he would be striking last anyway. So personally, i'd give it to the TWC, overall. But I would certainly be very wary of DC and would take pains to deny them the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3889936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune_Priest_Rhapsody Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Well, I for one am excited to dust off my Angels Encarmine that have sat unused for a couple of years. I already have 10 DC with jumpers and this new book certainly made them better. And the reality is that when I ally my BA I'll be running both units for extra scariness. End of Line Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fury_of_Fenris Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 They can keep their pretty boy sculpted armour, golden hair and twilight fangs Pure wolf for me till the end Whether i win or lose it does not matter as long as i fight and kill for the Emperor and and Russ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Don't worry. TWC will still wipe the floor with equivalent costed Death Company. TWC won't be dethroned any time soon. Hell, I remember my Krakenbone Lord murder 15 DC + Recluiarch (old Codex) alone (he had FnP Warlord Trait).. well, the last 5 were killed by charging TWC. The Lord himself only lost 2 wounds. So yeah, we are still the kings of all things choppy ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 From the looks of it If they charge us, we may lose out in the first round due to the Initiative/Strength bonus. But we should be able to split wounds between models. And past that first round , they become much less effective (as far as im aware, a lot of their bonuses only apply in the first round, and only if they charge). If we charge them, they have no initiative/strength bonus, and will die like normal marines Cool unit though, and glad they got more usable. Could see them being allied in as counts-as 13th company Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Even if they charge, 300pts SG and DC can not stand against 300pts TWC, provided the TWC has an optimized loadout. Both SG and DC only have the turn they charge, because out S10 Fists ignore FnP and armour and they lose by attrition. I tested my 255 points setup (2x PF/Pistol, 2x Pistol/CCW, 1x PF/Pistol) against 280 points DC (10 dudes with 2 Fists) and 276 points SG (7 dudes, 5 encarmine swords, 2 fists, banner). If they charged, TWC took some losses (around 2-3 models if unlucky, 1-2 when lucky, even had a run where there were no losses) but won. When TWC charged it was a massacre not worth mentioning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORKILL Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I played against the new BA codex Saturday in a local RTT. At one time, we had the following in a single combat. Krakenbone Lord w/ Runic/SS 2 Fenrisian Wolves 2 TWC 1 with Maul/SS 1 with PF/SS 1 Iron Priest on TWC 2 Cyber Wolves Arjac WGBL w/ Helm of Durfast two Fen Wolves Culexus My opponent had: Dante 10 Sang Guard Chaplain Priest 15 Death co When the brawl was over all that was left was the IP and the Culexus. I managed to get the win thanks to the Culexus grabbing 3VP on the last turn. We tied in kill points with 11 each. That put me in 2nd place for the day and 2nd place overall for the campaign that has been ongoing over the last year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I looked through the Codex and since i dont know the 5th one it might be obvious what i state. The +1I is only from a Detachment so they loose OBJSEC what is a pay off. They have it Charge only and they Are T4 3+ so if they dont get in CC Round 1 i know what i kill. They have 2 Decent LoW...and one has a "PF" @ I5. The Murderfang stand in has a MeltaGun which is usefull the round it Drops. They have Fast Vindicators. I like the SW Models GH , Bjorn , Murderfang and i love Arjac. But if i get Arjac SB as Formation im really drawn to play a Mechanized LIst with lots of Fast Tanks (RBs/Vinds/Preds) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3890842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwarsh41 Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I am not too worried about DC, after all, they are still just jump infantry when it comes to shooting them. Sure, a full squad on the charge can be nasty, but getting them there in one piece will be a bit rough. I do think the BA codex opens up some fun room for us to ally in fluffy 13th company using the DC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 wow, it looks like they have a formation that allows them to charge after arriving from reserves now that is a game changer http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/new-40k-dataslates-blood-angels-necrons.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 Wow, that is a very powerful formation, with one caveat: it's quite large, making it tough to fit lots of scary deep striking nasties into the same army. Should be very doable though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Costs 3 tacs and 3 SR though. Arriving first turn is solid but 30 tacs cost 480 and the Stormravens cost 600. Then you have the HQ and Troops tax tax from the BA detachment. What is left to assault? This is good for 3k and upwards and horrible for tournaments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 very true, not likely to see it in lower points games. That said you have no need to HQ/Troops tax if you just take another formation that is predominantly DS assault units. Still, nice to see this rule being tested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 wow, it looks like they have a formation that allows them to charge after arriving from reserves now that is a game changer http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/new-40k-dataslates-blood-angels-necrons.html you have to read it through they can arrive at earliest round 1 (on a 3+) and since homer rules stateyou have to be at least 1 round on the table before they work the other units. So the assaulting units that DP can charge earliest round 2, so combo with Pods Assault doesnt work. Also they have to be within 2 Homers and im not sure the homers work from inside a SR. This is ALOT of RNG and Restrictions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 No. It is pretty save and works perfectly with Dante's Descend of Angels. The problem is that the entry cost is too high. I can stomach 1 Raven with 10 Tacs and 2 Raven with 5 Tacs each. Even if they do not come on, not a big deal. But 3 Ravens with 30 tacs will never be popular in 1500-1750 games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 wow, it looks like they have a formation that allows them to charge after arriving from reserves now that is a game changer http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/new-40k-dataslates-blood-angels-necrons.html you have to read it through they can arrive at earliest round 1 (on a 3+) and since homer rules state you have to be at least 1 round on the table before they work the other units. So the assaulting units that DP can charge earliest round 2, so combo with Pods Assault doesnt work. Also they have to be within 2 Homers and im not sure the homers work from inside a SR. This is ALOT of RNG and Restrictions. Sorry maybe I wasn't clear. Being able to charge from reserves is the bit I think is a game changer because it hasn't been possible for a while. Points a side it is a change and may well be a shift in things to come. Not sure what you mean about pods etc. from the wording it just states that they (the units arriving from reserves) need to be within 12" range of 2 homing devices and then they can charge from arrival. So a T2 charge is still great if you only just arrived in that turn. It does make me wonder though whether the homing devices will be available as upgrades to the tactical squads otherwise it would seem very odd to have the formation built in such a way. I think the intention of this setup is to fly this lot into position and then have the majority of the rest of the army DS in and charge. I don't think the intention is to somehow get homing devices down to then charge the unit from the formation on T1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 there is nothing in the codex that wolves have not dealt with before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Sorry maybe I wasn't clear. Being able to charge from reserves is the bit I think is a game changer because it hasn't been possible for a while. Points a side it is a change and may well be a shift in things to come. Not sure what you mean about pods etc. from the wording it just states that they (the units arriving from reserves) need to be within 12" range of 2 homing devices and then they can charge from arrival. So a T2 charge is still great if you only just arrived in that turn. It does make me wonder though whether the homing devices will be available as upgrades to the tactical squads otherwise it would seem very odd to have the formation built in such a way. I think the intention of this setup is to fly this lot into position and then have the majority of the rest f the army DS in and charge. I don't think the intention is to somehow get homing devices down to then change the unit from the formation on T1. The Homer is a free Upgrade for seargents as stated in the pic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Cool, that makes sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 What i just realized: BA get several fomations and a Detachments for "Free" and we had to buy a whole Supplement for them....kinda not fair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Erm, what? BA are paying 60€ when we paid 39€. If anything, BA are bummed. GW did a clever move and disguised the supplement as a hardcover campaign book so that they can charge almost twice the amount. Consider yourself lucky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300430-blood-angels-are-we-afraid-of-them-do-we-want-to-recruit/#findComment-3891566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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