Command Squad Question

[Red-beard]

Due to his "honor or death" SR, the command squad company champion must issue/accept challenges "when possible". 

 

So, let's say an IC like Meph joins the command squad and the unit assaults an opponent. Can Meph issue a challenge (then making it impossible for the champion to also issue a challenge), or must my unit's only challenge come from the company champion (thus making it impossible for Meph to issue a challenge)?

 

 

 

[InquisitorBlack]

Good question, I was curious about this myself. 

[Frater Cornelius]

No, he can not. If an 'auto-challenge' character is in the unit, he will be the one issuing and accepting. If there are multiple ones, you get to choose.

In your example, you must issue and accept with the Champion, because Mephiston has no 'auto-challenge' rule.

The same as with the Chaos Marines and their Champions of Chaos rule.

 

'Auto-challenge' = abbreviation for 'must issue and accept challenges'.

[Red-beard]

Well that is a small negative in the command squad's column.

[Frater Cornelius]

Not always. Sometimes you want your IC to hit the unit for maximum damage, while the Champ will be stuck in a challenge instead.

[Red-beard]

With challenge wounds "rolling over" in 7E, even if the IC is in a challenge, he would still be able to have all his wounds do damage. 

 

If I can't choose which character/IC to put in the challenge, I think that's a negative.....especially with the objective cards out there that give away extra VPs for killing enemy characters in challenges. 

 

If there is a positive here, I am not seeing it yet. 

[Frater Cornelius]

With challenge wounds "rolling over" in 7E, even if the IC is in a challenge, he would still be able to have all his wounds do damage. 

 

If I can't choose which character/IC to put in the challenge, I think that's a negative.....especially with the objective cards out there that give away extra VPs for killing enemy characters in challenges. 

 

If there is a positive here, I am not seeing it yet. 

 

Yes, they are rolling over, but what if it is a 2+/3++ guy with 3-4 wounds? Mephy does not damage to him at all, while he wound absolutely demolish the MEQ unit behind the IC. The Champ is basically a way of bypassing the 2+/3++ for Mephys attacks.

[Lord Blackwood]

Not always the case ,  we have a similar rule when taking the Champions of Fenris Detachment. My Wolf Lord runs with a Squad of Thunderwolves , Both my wolf lord and the  sargent have the auto accept and issue rule.  The thing is , my wolf Lord has an AP2 Weapon that strikes at initative. sometimes its just simply better for ALL of my wolf lords attacks to hit the unit  wiping them out before they get a chance to even fight then the rest of the unit and the Sargent end up hitting into the challenge by letting the Packleader absorb the challenge it lets  the wolf lord butcher everyone else. Not only that but say the sargent loses the challenge well im still tied up in  combat and wont be shot next turn , whereas my wolflord might have just aced the enemy character and the rest of the thunderwolves might have just nommed down the squad.  Just some food for thought about the benefits of not having your tooled up IC get involved in challenges he dosent need to be in.

I know its a very spacewolf answer but the concept is the same and I am speaking from my in game experiences  @ n @  sorry. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the strategy works with TWC. Much better in fact. The Pack Leader himself has 2W T5 WS5 and can get 3++. He can easily tank a Chapter Master while the Lord eats the unit wholesale. The Champ does not have such stats. He is a MEQ with WS5 and 6++. All he can do is allow Mephiston (or whoever) strike at the squad for one turn.

 

Yet another reason why TWC are technically superior to any melee squad of equivalent cost in game ;)

[Red-beard]

I understand those examples, but my point is that it would be better if I could choose which model to make or accept a challenge with. You are right, some times I would choose to have the champion accept the challenge and not the IC, but having that decision made for me is a negative for the command squad when comparing it to other units I can field, at least imo.

 

I don't see any way in which having the choice taken away from me is a good thing. It's not a huge negative and won't keep me from using them, but it is something to consider when deciding whether to field a CC command squad or a DC squad, for example. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Agreed. But hey, you get them apothecary and champ for free, so don't complain :P

[Red-beard]

Yeah, it's just a nuance of the command squad that I hadn't considered before. 

[Daddywarcrimes]

Since you get to determine where you place each model when you make your assault moves, and you can't issue or accept a challenge if you're not within 2" of a model in BtB from your unit, manipulating who can and can't challenge and be challenged is totally doable.

[Frater Cornelius]

Challenges are not subject to the 2" rule. In fact, rule book says that when the two models that are in a challenged are not b2b, you have to move them b2b, even if that means exchanging two of your models positions.

It is an ancient strategy and is (an optional but useful) part of the slingshot tactic to get characters across the board ASAP.

[Red-beard]

Looking at the rules for challenges, it also says that any model who is not engaged in combat cannot issue or accept challenges. "Engaged in combat" is defined as being in B2B with an enemy model or being within 2" of a friendly model who is in B2B with an enemy model.

 

From these rules, it would seem like your champion could not issue/accept a challenge if he was all the way at the back of your unit and not within 2" of a friendly model in B2B with the enemy. However, pulling this off on your assault move seems like it would be very difficult as the charge distance is random. However, if you are the one being assaulted, you could manage it by keeping your champion in the back. 

[Calnus]

Timing is also important with challenges--You first make your assault moves with the whole squad, then challenge, then pile in at initiative.  So if you have some gap (say from barely completing a long charge) then you should be able to control who challenges by controlling which model in your unit is closest to the enemy.

 

Also, do you really want to move your unit so that your Champ is out front?  I would almost never run him forward, because I don't want a basic MEQ with gear tanking wounds for teh rest of the unit.  So if he's toward the back, you get more options.  And you can always form the unit up in conga line when you're moving toward assault.

 

To be honest, since 6th gave us so many closest-to-closest rules, movement and formations within each unit have really become critical to keep in mind, and this is just one more reason for it.