HQ Librarian Dread

[awilden]

Thanks for all the (numerous) replies, I think unless there's an FAQ update it'll be assuming no extra attacks, the argument for getting an extra attack seems a little too fiddly to have to  try explain before/during a game, the lib dread is pretty beastly model to field as it is anyway.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

It is a great model as is, besides unless you play in a tournament no one will ever argue this as friendly games are just that, a bit of fun.

Just keep your eye out for the Errata and thank god our Errata did not come out before the codex like the Dark Angel one did. ;)

[TheSauce]

I think this is a classic general vs special rule case. The general rule is that the dread gets +1 attack for two melee weapons. The special rule is that the specialist weapon (fist) means that he doesn't get the extra attack. The special rule overrides the general one.

 

That said, I would love an errata or FAQ for this! But since the dread is going to be force weapon-ing things anyway it shouldn't matter too much!

[toaae]

The agurment isnt that the dread gets an extra attack be cause he has two weapons, but that the dread gets an extra attack for each CCW weapon after the first. Specialist weapon clearly references the first part, but the ambiguity exists in really regard to the second. Getting an extra attack for having two weapons is its own, separate rule. As is dreads getting an extra attack per weapon.

 

I lean towards the extra attack argument based on that analysis.

 

But, more importantly, what's the best way to use the libby dread? Obviously not walking across the table. And if it's hitching a ride in a raven, that's at least one, potentially THREE, turns not casting powers. So, drop pod? But to what end? Alone and as a distraction, Fragnaughts are superior. To buff other drop pod units? I'm at a loss.

[TheSauce]

For me it has to be in a raven. Luckily we have some reserve reroll options (Dante, Captain Karlaen, Corbulo), so you can more or less count on your raven to arrive.

 

Sure, you miss a turn or two of casting powers, but I see him more as a beatstick for enemy monstrous creatures or nasty squads CC squads with him mass of S10 AP2 Force weapon attacks at high initiative.

[Xenith]

I think this is a classic general vs special rule case. The general rule is that the dread gets +1 attack for two melee weapons. The special rule is that the specialist weapon (fist) means that he doesn't get the extra attack. The special rule overrides the general one.

 

That said, I would love an errata or FAQ for this! But since the dread is going to be force weapon-ing things anyway it shouldn't matter too much!

 

Wrong way round.

 

The general rule is that specialist weapons need to be in pairs to get the extra attack.

 

The special rule is that walkers ignore the above rule, and have their own rules for generating the amount of attacks they receive.

 

The first rule is used by all models in game. The walker rules give them their own rules. 

 

They get the attack.

[Jolemai]

So in your opinion, your fellow Chaos players are doing it wrong with their Defilers?

[Deschenus Maximus]

So in your opinion, your fellow Chaos players are doing it wrong with their Defilers?

 

I do. Just look at it objectively: a helbrute has to pay 10 pts to upgrade a fist to scourge. Do you think it makes sense that you would have to pay 10 pts not only to strike at S8 instead of S10, but also lose an Attack? The power scourge's Flail rule is good, but it's not THAT good.

 

To me, the biggest problem with the argument of losing the attack is that the Specialist Weapon rule doesn't clearly state how it interacts with Walkers. The rule would have needed to be written along the lines of "Also, a Walker does not gain +1 Attack for each Melee weapon beyond the first unless said Melee weapon(s) also have the Specialist Weapon special rule." They deliberately made mention of how Unwieldy interacts with Walkers, but somehow they wouldn't have thought to explain how Specialist Weapon interacts with them? Seem more likely to me that they thought it was clear enough that there is no interaction.

 

 

But, more importantly, what's the best way to use the libby dread? Obviously not walking across the table. And if it's hitching a ride in a raven, that's at least one, potentially THREE, turns not casting powers. So, drop pod? But to what end? Alone and as a distraction, Fragnaughts are superior. To buff other drop pod units? I'm at a loss.

 

A fragnaught may be superior, but it does not fill your mandatory HQ slot. On that merit alone, a heavy flamer-equiped Libby dread deserves consideration.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

To me its main use is in a Lucius Pattern Drop pod, turn 1 straight into the thick of the foe and a huge foe that must be dealt with whilst I Drop in my assualt Squads in Drop Pods with Tripple Meltas to take care of enemy armour.

Personally I see it as my answer to big griblies and Thunder Wolves.

[Remtek]

Seems like the mass replaced bloodfist with powerfist and forgot to clarify. The old dex had the 2(3) on profiles, but new one does not have this.

 

RAI it seems pretty clear they want him to have 3 attacks.

RAW is a mess, specific > general, but in this case it's not that clear which is most specific? I can see this going either way.

 

Feels like a Raven is the way to go. Not sure if i wan't the ML2 upgrade, perhaps a ML 2 regular Libby as a battery so they can alternate casting. I wouldt want him as my Warlord, feels like your giving away slay the warlord. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 I wouldt want him as my Warlord, feels like your giving away slay the warlord. 

 

Concur.

[knife&fork]

Any discussion about extra attacks on the Furioso lib (or other non BA walkers) ends here. 

 

Take it to PMs or the OR forums if you wish to continue.

[Jolemai]

Thread created.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Any discussion about extra attacks on the Furioso lib (or other non BA walkers) ends here. 

 

Take it to PMs or the OR forums if you wish to continue.

 

 

Since the other BA Dreads have very similar rules, especially those who share a kit and statline would be a direct rules comparison to the Librarian dreadnought which is the topic of the thread as it is being used to work out a rules question which does factor into the viability of the model would surely make this highly relevent to the thread?

That being the case I don't understand what rule is being infringed on here, I could understand it on the equipment argument on the Dante thread where they are arguing the viability of the upgrades on none named HQ's but here where it is about the actual model in question?

[Xenith]

Didnt see the nix.

 

Good call on the off topic shutdown.

 

I dunno if he's be my warlord, but I love the idea.  

[Raktra]

I'll definitely be running one in my lists. Not as a Warlord mind, Dante's got that job. But they just seem far, far too fun with the new discipline and whatnot to try out. That and I need something to perform anti-wraithnoun duties.

[Black Marshal]

im thinking of running one in my mech ba behind my preds. he would work well to buff my preds and be a good counter assault unit.

[knife&fork]

 

That being the case I don't understand what rule is being infringed on here,  

 

 

Generally when we step in like this it's because the argument isn't going anywhere. Each side had already presented their view and things are just going in circles. 

 

At such a time it's either agree to disagree, and wait for a FAQ. Or take it to OR in a new thread for some fresh, outside input. 

 

The number of attacks is somewhat relevant, yes, but not important enough to hijack the entire thread

[Venemox]

So, now for a meta discussion of board rules vice game rules for the model in question...

 

Anyways, due to the randomness of getting Wings of Sanguinius, and it being 2 WCs), the Librarian Dreadnought must ride.  That either means a Drop Pod as a DT, or dedicating a Heavy Support slot to a Stormraven (unless you're running a Stormwing anyways).  Additionally, with our decreased ability to field an AV 13 front, the Libby is prime target for all antitank fire.  I would prefer to embed my force multiplier (and that's what Librarians are) as IC's in squads of meat shields.

 

I love my Libby dreads (too bad I can't field them all now, outside of multiple detachments), and they are almost always in for friendly games.  They were a core component of my AV 13 company.

[knife&fork]

That primaris though.... 

 

It's a hard counter to just about any MC on the ground, and enough attacks and character status makes it a scary opponent for any non EW character.

 

You don't quite appreciate a S10 AP2 force weapon striking at initiative before you consider how much it would suck to face it yourself.  

[knife&fork]

Ran the new codex with psykers for the first time today.

One Lib Dread as HQ and a supporting jump librarian, both ML 2.

 

http://i.imgur.com/xcuN7Rg.jpg?1

 

I've always liked pyromancy but never had the chance to run it, so I took that for my jump librarian. 

 

Lib Dread went with sanguinary powers, wings + rage. 

 

Must say the Dread lib was my MVP. He singlehandedly  killed off a Nob bike star over two combat phases.  

So far I like him a lot. With the sanguinary powers (and a warlord trait when it suits your list) his damage potential is crazy and survival chance is great when you use a raven for mobility. Swapped the storm bolter for a flamer which felt like a reasonable compromise. infantry in number is going to an issue while a single melta is very unreliable anti tank. 

 

I think the Lib dread will replace Mephiston as the beat-stick in my lists. 

[Chaplain Admetus]

So, now for a meta discussion of board rules vice game rules for the model in question...

 

Anyways, due to the randomness of getting Wings of Sanguinius, and it being 2 WCs), the Librarian Dreadnought must ride.  That either means a Drop Pod as a DT, or dedicating a Heavy Support slot to a Stormraven (unless you're running a Stormwing anyways).  Additionally, with our decreased ability to field an AV 13 front, the Libby is prime target for all antitank fire.  I would prefer to embed my force multiplier (and that's what Librarians are) as IC's in squads of meat shields.

 

I love my Libby dreads (too bad I can't field them all now, outside of multiple detachments), and they are almost always in for friendly games.  They were a core component of my AV 13 company.

 

The fact that Wings only affects infantry is also a good reason not to rely on it for the dready ;) I might run him as a secondary HQ, but not as a warlord. Too easy to take out, and not enough customisablity.

[Venemox]

Thanks, Chaplain Admetus.  I was stuck in the old Wings rut.  That simply make sit a power that the Librarian Dreadnought cannot cast on himself, so an auto-swap for Primaris, or a functionally dead choice if you have Pychic Focus.  Certainly adds a depth of strategy for rolling Sanguinary Powers or switching up.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm very tempted to try a libby dread with HF in a pod. Of course, another character will take Warlord duty.

[JamesI]

I'm very tempted to try a libby dread with HF in a pod. Of course, another character will take Warlord duty.

A pyromancy libby dread in a pod could be awesome.