Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I believe he meant Heavy Flamer + Flamer. They diminish each other. Fair dinkum mate! In which case I'll plug me own argument on that from earlier (am passionate about dem flames, y' see :)) this is where planning and positioning makes a difference. HF and flamers go at opposite ends of the squad, so their arcs don't merge and compete. If it takes only the HF to kill them in the first place, either you didn't have bigger fish to fry or you're using your tacs on the wrong target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Drop Pod, 10 men, melta, heavy flamer. If, after you're done building the rest of your list you still have some points over, you can buy an Inferno Pistol for the sarge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I got so many Melta on my Ba, I am actually making fast, flamer focused unit for my next tacticals: Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Sarge's takes Hand flamer (JIC. melta bombs) fast vanguard tacticals top clear out enemy entrenched positions and simply cause lots of wounds. All weapons are assault or pistol so moving and firing them is no problem. However it suits my fast paced aggressive style. All my rest tacticals have melta's or combi melta's / infernus pistols with missile launchers. + My nasty 4 multimelta Dev group... So I got enough melta for my troops so I can simply put one pure flamer unit wrecking havock on my enemy side of table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-beard Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Flamer weapons are highly underrated, imo. I want a couple things from my tac squads.... 1) I want them to be mobile, often moving every round (so all the heavy weapons are out....snap firing makes those weapon not worth the price). 2) I want them to be able to hold an objective....this means being able to survive being assaulted (so flamer weapons are very nice) Given these two criteria, flamers and heavy flamers are nice options. The heavy flamer, in particular, is a *very nice* option. Also, I like melta guns since they are able to be shot when moving/assaulting and can provide that extra AP2 punch. Plasma is an option, but I usually stay away from it for fear of killing myself. My most common load out will be heavy flamer/melta or heavy flamer/flamer, depending on whom I'm expecting to play against. Good thing I have all those spare heavy flamer bits on my stern guard sprues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapelXIII Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throne Bearer Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I rarely take a heavy weapon in a Tactical squad, but with the new dex I will add heavy flamers to all. If the intent is to combat squad, I would add a melta, otherwise another flamer. There is no kill like overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The only time I take flamers to date is if the squad will be combat squadded. I don't see the flamer having good synergy with 10 men and a heavy weapon. I'm open minded to taking the heavy flamer and flamer, but I don't like the idea of 10 tacticals being that close to anything that close or with a gun. I'm totally the opposite. I don't see the point of high strength weapons in a tac squad. You're wasting the firepower of every other member. Plasma is the limit. With plasma being rapid fire it always fires the same time as the bolters. I never considered a shot 'wasted'. Heavy weapons on the other hand, do get 'wasted' in my games, so I rarely take them on tactical marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon. The template-specific ruling does not supercede the general rule on the resolution by different types. It is in addition to it and refers to multiple templates at each shootig stage i.e. Weapon type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. That's where planning and positioning comes in, in those situations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushman101 Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I'm a big fan of tactical flexibility, because sometimes you don't chose your battles, they chose you. That being said, I personally like a 10 man Tact squad with a H Flamer and a Melta or a regular Flamer and Missle/M Melta. Template weapons are good for OverWatch, while the high AP weapon is good for tank hunting or high armor save targets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon. The template-specific ruling does not supercede the general rule on the resolution by different types. It is in addition to it and refers to multiple templates at each shootig stage i.e. Weapon type. If that is true then the whole paragraf "Multiple Templates" is redundant since you would do that anyways without it explaining it. The wording seems pretty clear to me, "if a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type" means exactly that. I don't see why it wouldn't supersede the original rule when it is listed under special rules which according to the rulebook "breaks or bends" the core rules. Btw, English is my second language so I hope my tone in writing is not too harsh when I only try to argue my point to find out the correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Some people might think they would roll to wound with the first flamer, allocate, then do the same with the second flamer. Particularly if they assume templates have their own allocation rules. Anyway play it how you want, but the way I described is how it is in the rulebook, at my club and at tournament. Your English is fine, this is a healthy discussion :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon. The template-specific ruling does not supercede the general rule on the resolution by different types. It is in addition to it and refers to multiple templates at each shootig stage i.e. Weapon type. If that is true then the whole paragraf "Multiple Templates" is redundant since you would do that anyways without it explaining it. The wording seems pretty clear to me, "if a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type" means exactly that. I don't see why it wouldn't supersede the original rule when it is listed under special rules which according to the rulebook "breaks or bends" the core rules. Btw, English is my second language so I hope my tone in writing is not too harsh when I only try to argue my point to find out the correct answer. Let's say you have a squad with heavy flamer, a flamer and a sarge with two hand flamers. You lay down 4 templates, calculate the hits and then it comes to wounding. Which strength and AP will you be using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer.I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon.The template-specific ruling does not supercede the general rule on the resolution by different types. It is in addition to it and refers to multiple templates at each shootig stage i.e. Weapon type. If that is true then the whole paragraf "Multiple Templates" is redundant since you would do that anyways without it explaining it. The wording seems pretty clear to me, "if a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type" means exactly that. I don't see why it wouldn't supersede the original rule when it is listed under special rules which according to the rulebook "breaks or bends" the core rules. Btw, English is my second language so I hope my tone in writing is not too harsh when I only try to argue my point to find out the correct answer. Let's say you have a squad with heavy flamer, a flamer and a sarge with two hand flamers. You lay down 4 templates, calculate the hits and then it comes to wounding. Which strength and AP will you be using? Each one is a different weapon, you do one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I know, Ishagu. That was my way of showing that "multiple templates" rule unfortunately does not apply in case of a tac squad with several different flame weapons. The hand flamers are used simultaneously, though ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Regarding dimnished returns with multiple flamers, I just found this on Page 674 in the digital enhanced rulebook: Multiple Templates If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal. I think that only applies to templates with the same profile. You will still get diminished returns if you use a hand flamer, flamer, and heavy flamer. I don't think so, it specifically mentions weapons with the template type, nowhere does it say that it has to be the same named weapon. The template-specific ruling does not supercede the general rule on the resolution by different types. It is in addition to it and refers to multiple templates at each shootig stage i.e. Weapon type. If that is true then the whole paragraf "Multiple Templates" is redundant since you would do that anyways without it explaining it. The wording seems pretty clear to me, "if a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type" means exactly that. I don't see why it wouldn't supersede the original rule when it is listed under special rules which according to the rulebook "breaks or bends" the core rules. Btw, English is my second language so I hope my tone in writing is not too harsh when I only try to argue my point to find out the correct answer. Let's say you have a squad with heavy flamer, a flamer and a sarge with two hand flamers. You lay down 4 templates, calculate the hits and then it comes to wounding. Which strength and AP will you be using? You follow the rule "determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template" then "roll To Wound as normal". If it was only about templates with the same weapon names this line would also be redundant. @ Shaezus - I'm quoting the rulebook so this is also in the rulebook. Special rules supersede core rules. Of course we are all free to play it how we want but just because a lot of people play it one way doesn't mean it's the right way. I just think this has such a big impact on us BA that it's worth discussing. Or maybe I'm missing some nuance in the language here or just completely misunderstanding. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 @hairojin, how would it be redundant? And how would you differentiate between S5 and S4 and AP4 and AP5 if you do all at once? Is this mentioned in the section on templates aslo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 It would be redundant since it's already explained in the core rules. I don't see the problem with differentiating the different strength and AP values from each other since you record the how many hits are scored by each template, they go in different wound pools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSauce Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I agree with team B on this one. The flamers are separated into different groups based on their strength and AP, the same way you would split off a melta gun from boltguns. In the same way you can shoot the boltguns first and end up with no targets within 12" of the melta gun (so it can't shoot), if you shoot the heavy flamer first you can end up with fewer targets for the other flamers to hit (though you still remove the models closest-first based on the whole unit, so with positioning it might not be too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I think flamer heavy flamer hand flamer and power sword and rhino is going to be best. Take the formation that gives +1 initiative. Should be really good for clearing and holding objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 @ haorojin You are thinking of 6th ed rules. There is nothing at all in the template section which either suggests or states explicitly that template weapons of different types are all fired simultaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Another thing people seem to not have pict up on is how many armys these days have to except challenges. So with initiate 5 on the charge, it's well worth giving the sarge a power sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I would agree with you all if it wasn't for how the rule is worded, "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type," I feel that I have derailed this thread enough so I will drop it now, sorry for the OT rules debate. To answer the OP, I plan to take a ten man squad with flamer, combiflamer/lightningclaw and plasma cannon in a rhino. Maybe the lightningclaw is to much but I like the model (see my avatar) and want them to be able to take objectives by charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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