ServoBadger Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Since they can come in bigger squads now, I'm looking at adding another five. I currently have three swords, two axes, one inferno pistol and the banner in the existing squad. I'm tentatively looking at three swords, one axe, one fist and an inferno pistol when I bring the squad up to 10 models, the idea being to maximise the benefit of the old school furious charge we get with as many swords as possible. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 In a 10 man squad I plan on running 1 fist 1 axe and 8 swords. Will leave them with there standard shooty weapons to try keep the cost down. Melta duty will be covered with my assault marines anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I am still having a tough time grasping the advantage SG have over DC when it comes to melee and survivability when compared to cost. Can anyone fill me in on the secret every BA seems to know somehow? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Perhaps it's because people have them in their collections and want to make use of them with their new rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Personally I like to run 2 Axe, 2 Fists, 2 - 4 Pistols and Banner. Sanguinary guard are better again low Ap, Missiles destroy DC, they however glance off Guard. You have to remember as well they all come with power weapons as standard and 2 shot bolters at AP 4. 10 DC with power Weapons and Jump Packs costs 380 Points. 10 Guard Cost 50 points left which is almost enough points for a priest who will buff the squad and give FNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 yeah, I believe someone did the math, Sanguinary guard were better against enemies with 3+ or worse thanks to the all round power weapons, they're even better against enemies with a 4+ as they can kill two per turn (potentially) each with their default guns. Death company are better vs enemies with no save or 6+ due to chance of them surviving being slim, and death company getting nearly double the attacks. Death company are also better vs 2+ enemies or ones with a good invulnerable, again because of saturation of attacks. 10 sanguinary guard is 365 points base with banner and masks. thats 40 attacks on the charge, chance to force enemies down to WS 1 as well. 10 death company with packs is only 230 points but without other upgrades wont do a whole lot vs MEQ or TEQ really 50 attacks sure, but half those will miss (equal WS and no chance to reduce enemy WS) strength 5 (on the charge) means they do about 17 wounds, of which about 11 will be saved. so the death company on the charge will cause maybe 6 unsaved wounds on the charge vs MEQ, which is pretty great for a 230 point unit. the sanguinary guard: assuming enemy WS isnt dropped: 20 hits base, but they also get a reroll per model, meaning they should, get about 25 hits as well (same as death company) they likewise wound on 3s, so should again do about 17 wounds. but MEQ get no saves. Dead MEQ if WS was dropped: should get about 26 hits base, again the rerolls though so about 31 hits overall so about 21 AP3 hits. so you pay the extra points for the sanguinary guard, makes them clearly better than unupgraded DC, it also doesnt take into account that the sanguinary guard will 'out of the box' do more damage in shooting, and vs anything that isn't AP2 be more survivable. if you pay for the DC to all have power weapons they cost 380 points. they now cause 17 unsaved wounds, exactly the same as sanguinary guard. sanguinary guard are also slightly better in a protracted fight assuming they have the banner, the two units have the same number of attacks, same strength, same AP3 weapons. However sanguinary guard have the death masks and master crafted weapons, which means they should average out to a few more hits per round overall too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 The problem with Masks is that the majority of units that could stand against SG in melee are either Fearless or have ATSKNF, making them immune to Fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 even without the masks, the above shows the sanguinary guard to be equally as good as death company of a similar points cost. the masks will be excellent against a lot of chaos marine units etc. sure it isnt going to be amazing all the time, but thats why its a 1 point upgrade. dont purchase them and they lose nothing vs the power weapon squad of death company. against enemies with really low saves, the death company will probably come much closer to even with the guard. based on the math above (which is probably a little out) the two are about equal to eachother vs TEQ as they get a similar number of wounds in. Death company shine when you have maybe 4 power weapons in a 10 man squad, thats then a 290 point unit rather than a 380 point unit, will perform slightly worse than the sanguinary guard but has freed up a lot of points for something else - say, a priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServoBadger Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 8 swords... now that's tempting, assuming I can find a bits site with the necessary arms! Thanks for all the replies, lots to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I set mine up a little higher on AP2 weaponry. My 10 have 2 fists, 3 axes, and 5 swords. Now, I have not yet used all 10 so generally I'm going to be pretty evenly split between the slow weapons and the swords. But I figure the ICs I like to attach will provide some good initiative attacks (Dante!) anyway so I can afford a few more axes or fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 yeah, I have 15 sanguinary guard at the moment - another 5 unbuilt though. currently built: 10 swords, 3 fists, 2 axes. from the math above, i kind of think going mostly swords is the way forward, maybe a single fist. Avoid units with 2+ saves where possible because those units often also have AP2 weapons and invulnerables, the one combo where sanguinary guard actually kind of suck. They are still effectively a bully unit, the fist is there as insurance if they get into a fight with a walker, or want to waste a vehicle. I don't think I'd run them without Dante, because not only can he tank, and provides AP2 at init if needed, he more importantly gives them a way to get out of unwanted combats (hit and run) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Id go 2-3 axes and 1 fist in a 10 man squad. 2 inferno pistols. Almost always getting the charge will make you wound other meqs on a 3+ at worst, and if you get that pesky wraithknight or 2+ enemy unit in your face you still have a decent chance of taking em down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I guess if you run SG, you would do so with a Priest. FnP is a good things and they hit with WS5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 probably Immersturm, but its another big point investment. Probably a case of not taking the masks if you take a priest (the difference between the DC squad and sanguinary guard would then cover part of the cost of the priest) certainly starts to be an all eggs in one basket type thing though. as we'd be looking at... 430 points assuming no fists etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 That is probably my SW list building philosophy shining through. I like to have 1-2 solid units on the field as char bus and main hammer of the army. But on the other hand, SG are not in the same echelon as TWC are, so I might be wrong with that approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 its exactly what i did back in 5th (sanguinary guard + dante + priest) but a 10 man unit + priest + dante is not far off half an army lol, and i think it'd need a librarian as well in the hopes of picking up the 5++ power and granting quickening to dante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 That is probably my SW list building philosophy shining through. I like to have 1-2 solid units on the field as char bus and main hammer of the army. But on the other hand, SG are not in the same echelon as TWC are, so I might be wrong with that approach. I think SG can achieve this role, but as you say TWC are better at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 You have to remember as well though that a priest brings a huge amount to a Sanguinary Guard unit cheaply, A Chaplin bring allot less for more points. Also the Banner the Guard Carry buff other units as well which is greay synergy in combined assaults in close range of one another, DC do not bring that to the table. Also you have to consider that Guard with a priest are more survivable than Death Company are and would be at similar points if DC all had PW's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 That's actually a common misconception. Just like the Company Banner, the Chapter Banner's 12" bubble allows those within the re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests. What makes it different is that it gives +1 A to the unit whilst the banner bearer is alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Squad of 10 should have 2 axes, 8 swords, 2 - 4 inferno pistols and a banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I have 2 5man squads that each of those have 1 axe, 1 fist and 1 melta pistol. I'll just combine them and add the banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 That's actually a common misconception. Just like the Company Banner, the Chapter Banner's 12" bubble allows those within the re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests. What makes it different is that it gives +1 A to the unit whilst the banner bearer is alive. Its not a misconception, all models within a range a buff. Fairly certain it also grants +1 attack to all within a certain range but i don't have my codex to check as in work atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Jolemai is correct, it IS a misconception. many people see the 12" and assume the +1A is granted in the bubble, it never has been, in any edition as far as i remember. Always the bonus to attacks is for the unit specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I think that DC and SG are both pretty nasty assault units but they excel against slightly different targets. I plan to run a decent sized unit of both. Even if my opponent has enough firepower to stop one of them reaching his lines, chances are the other will get there and cause some havoc. My current plan is ~10 Death Company with 2 power fists (and maybe a few other toys if points permit) led by Astorath for massed rerolls. These guys can cut through even TWC if they get the charge. Then 10 SG led by a priest for +1WS and FNP with 2 axes for cheap AP2, 2 fists and maybe 2 infernus pistols in case I need to crack transports to get at the goods inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Never really looked into it that far, they are never close enough to other units, must of assumed it was like the Sanguinors buff. Oh well, its still a buff damn it! ;) lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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