Wolf Lord Loki Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 So we all know the Mephiston was overcome by the red thirst and, through sheer will power, has forced himself beyond it. The red thirst is a manic desire/ overwhelming addiction to drink blood am I right? So the black rage is where the marines mind is essentiallying over written by his primarch's last battle? He is unable to tell the difference between then and now. If that's the case how can Lemartes be both lucid AND in the grip of the black rage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Eh... plot convenience I guess? I have come to accept that sort of thing. I mean, my Primarch has been raised by Wolves, even though there are no wolves on Fenris :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Mephiston and Lemartes have both experienced and overcome the BLACK RAGE in different ways. Mephiston defeated it completely, becoming a new kind of Blood Angel in the process. Lemartes struggles with it every day, forever, and remains semi-lucid by sheer force of will The Red Thirst is a chronic condition that all Blood Angels must cope with. It doesn't kill - it just makes your life miserable. The Black Rage is a deadly degenerative madness that ends a marine's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContemptuousAngel Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Rules wise, Lemartes is dead to me for now. He takes up a very important Elites slot. Sad face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhx711 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Rules wise, Lemartes is dead to me for now. He takes up a very important Elites slot. Sad face. Yeah it kind of hurts that he can't be taken along with the death company in one slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContemptuousAngel Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 It's like his attitude has gone from "you hit me!? RARRWWRARWARRRIMGONNARIPOFFAYOURFACE!!!!" To "you hit me!? Please don't do that." Or again maybe it's just because old Lemmy and new DC would be OP? Personally I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContemptuousAngel Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Wounding Lemartes still makes him 666. But nearly every time I used him if something wounded him he instantly died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContemptuousAngel Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 But they did lower his stacks to the new crappy chaplain standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitorBlack Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Astorath is straight up better in the current ruleset, which is a shame. I was looking forward to running Lemmy until I read his rules :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I am going to run Astorath wih a lemartes model. Best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother chains Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Has lemartes lost liturgies of blood in the new codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Yes he now has zealot in its place, so he doesn't grant re-roll to wound on charge for DC anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 The distinction between the Red Thirst and the Black Rage is not as clear cut as some people seem to think it is. Or, there was a rewrite along the way which tried to separate the two more distinctly and did a poor job of it. Originally, it was more along the lines that the Red Thirst was the compulsion for drinking blood, but also the source of the Blood Angels aggression. Succumbing to the Red Thirst was when the brother began to have visions of Sanguinius, and lose his sense of self. Angels of Death codex, p.21 The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it humility and understanding of their own failings which make the Blood Angels the most truly noble of the Legiones Astartes. Typically the onset of the Red Thirst is accompanied by visions of death. many of those who suffer from it are tormented by visions of the final terrible death of their Primarch. It may be that this madness presages the onset of a terrible debilitative stage of the disease and that this is one reason why Blood Angels join the Death Company, preferring a clean death in service of humanity rather than a slow descent into madness and possibly heresy. The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place. And later on, the Death Company unit entry on, p. 29 The Chaplains of the Blood Angels watch carefully for any sign of the Blood Rage, as it is called, and take any that are afflicted to one side. These doomed warriors are arrayed in special armour and joined together in a unit called the Death Company. So, apparently it used to be the Blood Rage, too. I'm not sure exactly when things got more muddied and turned about by this Red Thirst rewrite and Black Rage stuff. The first I know of it is the special rule Black Rage in 3rd (maybe 4th? The 1998 book) edition codex. Blood Angels are gripped by the spirit of Sanguinius and are prone to entering a berserk frenzy of bloodletting in battle. This is terrifying to behold as they unleash their righteous fury, butchering any enemy that lie in their path...Blood Angels are so eager for bloodshed they become barely controllable in combat. Followed by the adjacent Death Company rule On the eve of battle, the Blood Angels kneel in prayer and their thoughts turn to their Primarch. Some are overcome by the gene-memory of their Primarch's violent death and succumb to the Black Rage. So in the first quote, it says that all Blood Angels are prone to going nuts in battle, to one degree or another, regardless of whether or not they fall so far as to be forced into the Death Company. Meanwhile, the Red Thirst isn't mentioned in either notation. It is mentioned as a special rule for the Death Company unit later on, and the Red Thirst rule simply states that they have to move towards the nearest enemy if not under the leadership of a Chaplain or Sanguinary High Priest, which again underlines the Red Thirst as a source of anger. Lemartes entry called Iron-Willed says that: Lemartes can channel the Black Rage instead of being overwhelmed by it Even more confusing, Moriar has the same rule as Death Company, having to move towards enemy units and assault if possible. But instead of being called the Red Thirst as it is for the Death Company, it's called Black Rage. A short story at the end of the dex has a Marine who goes a little nuts in a fight, getting super angry and tearing his way through the line until he's side by side with the Death Company, but he pulls himself back from the brink. At the end: He could understand their hatred, their burning anger that seemed to set them afire from head to toe. He too could feel the Black Rage, suffusing his entire body and soul with the pain of Sanguinius. For a moment he had let it spill forth, but he had controlled it. The Black Rage had not claimed him. Not today. So here, we have the Black Rage referred to as the anger of Sanguinius, which every one of the Angels can feel in times of duress, without necessarily being consumed by it. In short, the Red Thirst and the Black Rage have become pretty confused as time went on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Loki Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 I recall during Armagedon 3 there was a story that came out about Tychos glorious death after he fell to the black rage and in that he addresses his chaplain as Dorn and the chaplain is saddened that his friend is now lost for ever. I couldn't see how this was compatible with being able to be lucid. Possibly the primarchs memories are overlayed over his own (granting an image of the here and now and one of the heresy) with him just able to recall that the person in front of him isn't Dorn or the Emperor. I don't even know if that makes any sense....been a long day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I couldn't see how this was compatible with being able to be lucid. Possibly the primarchs memories are overlayed over his own (granting an image of the here and now and one of the heresy) with him just able to recall that the person in front of him isn't Dorn or the Emperor. I don't even know if that makes any sense....been a long day I've had friends come back from Iraq and have flashbacks like what Tycho did. Think of the Black Rage as a genetically inherited form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The part of the brain that remembers (or dreams as is fitting the general concept of what's happening) is active and showing the marine a false reality built on the memories of Sanguinius. At the same time that marine's brain is also still processing live stimuli coming from the real world. So the brain turns the memory into a waking dream, twisting reality around until it conveniently overlays with the memory. Mephiston flat out shut that dream down. The process of doing so altering his brain chemistry/biology/etc. Lemartes is stuck in dreamland but he knows it's dreamland. He sees and hears the dream but understands he's not actually talking to Dorn. In moments he needs to let the crazy out he can simply accept the dream and go with it. Taking a wound to cause his rage represents breaking his concentration. Tycho went all the way down the rabbit hole, though his strong mind kept him from turning into a berserker right off. Death Company are the guys who have it the worst. They got the memories of carnage and combat or their minds are too weak to deal with the psychic screams of Sanguinius himself and it simply drives them into a frenzy. Anybody who's worked with the mentally ill will understand how easy a patient will fly off into a tantrum... and how freakin scary it can be. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I couldn't see how this was compatible with being able to be lucid. Possibly the primarchs memories are overlayed over his own (granting an image of the here and now and one of the heresy) with him just able to recall that the person in front of him isn't Dorn or the Emperor. I don't even know if that makes any sense....been a long day I've had friends come back from Iraq and have flashbacks like what Tycho did. Think of the Black Rage as a genetically inherited form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The part of the brain that remembers (or dreams as is fitting the general concept of what's happening) is active and showing the marine a false reality built on the memories of Sanguinius. At the same time that marine's brain is also still processing live stimuli coming from the real world. So the brain turns the memory into a waking dream, twisting reality around until it conveniently overlays with the memory. Mephiston flat out shut that dream down. The process of doing so altering his brain chemistry/biology/etc. Lemartes is stuck in dreamland but he knows it's dreamland. He sees and hears the dream but understands he's not actually talking to Dorn. In moments he needs to let the crazy out he can simply accept the dream and go with it. Taking a wound to cause his rage represents breaking his concentration. Tycho went all the way down the rabbit hole, though his strong mind kept him from turning into a berserker right off. Death Company are the guys who have it the worst. They got the memories of carnage and combat or their minds are too weak to deal with the psychic screams of Sanguinius himself and it simply drives them into a frenzy. Anybody who's worked with the mentally ill will understand how easy a patient will fly off into a tantrum... and how freakin scary it can be. I really like this summary. Also, I hope your buddy is getting the support he needs and deserves. My wife is a therapist, so I know a little about PTSD, and I had an episode of acute stress - that's the minor version, the weird symptoms your brain creates while it processes something awful that happens to you or you witness - after witnessing a terrible car accident. It made for a pretty y weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well, remember that Lemartes' channeling of the Black Rage was written when the Black Rage isn't what it seems to be now. When it was created, the Black Rage more or less became the constant anger that the Red Thirst originally encompassed in earlier fluff. It was not a binary on/off switch, where once you have it, you're a delusional hallucinating frothing madman. It was a constant, permanent condition for all Blood Angels, and only after a certain point would a Blood Angel be unable to control it, and go proper nutters beyond any hope of a true return to stability. So, when Lemartes was channeling the Black Rage, he was using the anger inherent in the Blood Angel's gene-seed, while keeping himself back from the brink of true madness, which is quite the extraordinary tight rope to walk. Meanwhile, Mephiston's fluff was written before there was a Black Rage, and the Flaw was all lumped summarily under the title of Red Thirst, with exception to the very final point being the Blood Rage. So by understanding this definition of the Red Thirst, Mephiston is just a step up from Lemartes, falling past the brink, joining the Death Company, and against all odds, pulling himself back to a semblance of sanity. So, what Lemartes does is remarkable, but what Mephiston did is incredible. So the issue is that these terms have changed definition again and again, but the original words are still used in the characters' descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Oh, I forgot the Red Thirst: The compulsion to drink blood is just that: a compulsion. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is genetically passed on and not only can account for the obsession with drinking blood (I've seen stranger ticks, trust me) but it could also account for their need to perfect some form of artistry. An attempt to refocus the compulsive behavior onto something constructive, maybe? Having been to anger management myself that was when I started taking this hobby seriously. Converting/painting minis gave me somewhere to focus the intense energies of my anger and keep me out of trouble. So if they craft to deal why the rage/thirst? Just ask anybody who's had to battle an addiction. Exerting that level of self control constantly with no real break in clear sight can make a Brother cranky as . I really like this summary. Also, I hope your buddy is getting the support he needs and deserves. My wife is a therapist, so I know a little about PTSD, and I had an episode of acute stress - that's the minor version, the weird symptoms your brain creates while it processes something awful that happens to you or you witness - after witnessing a terrible car accident. It made for a pretty y weekend. He's doing much these days. If certain things pop up in conversation now he just gets poop face and excuses himself from the room. And thank you. :D Well, remember that Lemartes' channeling of the Black Rage was written when the Black Rage isn't what it seems to be now. When it was created, the Black Rage more or less became the constant anger that the Red Thirst originally encompassed in earlier fluff. It was not a binary on/off switch, where once you have it, you're a delusional hallucinating frothing madman. It was a constant, permanent condition for all Blood Angels, and only after a certain point would a Blood Angel be unable to control it, and go proper nutters beyond any hope of a true return to stability. So, when Lemartes was channeling the Black Rage, he was using the anger inherent in the Blood Angel's gene-seed, while keeping himself back from the brink of true madness, which is quite the extraordinary tight rope to walk. Meanwhile, Mephiston's fluff was written before there was a Black Rage, and the Flaw was all lumped summarily under the title of Red Thirst, with exception to the very final point being the Blood Rage. So by understanding this definition of the Red Thirst, Mephiston is just a step up from Lemartes, falling past the brink, joining the Death Company, and against all odds, pulling himself back to a semblance of sanity. So, what Lemartes does is remarkable, but what Mephiston did is incredible. So the issue is that these terms have changed definition again and again, but the original words are still used in the characters' descriptions. Your interpretation of the original fluff is pretty good. I would ask that you try to look at the inconsistencies as symptom of product development. I miss the days of Berserker Barrage marines just as much as the rest of us but I do really appreciate the effort that's gone into bringing everything to a coherent and even relateable place. This setting and the characters in it have had a long time to mature and take form. I know it's annoying having to "relearn" aspects of the story every time it gets revisited but please consider the current depth of it all. My interpretation encompasses the history of all of the aforementioned characters, modded with the current language, and they they all magically become consistent. If it helps think of the gradual retconning as all of the stories that first started popping up as transitioning from rumor, myth, and hearsay to historical accuracy. While I'm at it? The drastic changes in the codecies over the year could easily be explained as Dante changing chapter doctrine and tactics to fit the strategic/tactical theatres of the time period the books are updated in. After all, the 40k universe's clock has actually been running all this time. To think the story, and it's characters, was never going to evolve and change over the last 15 years is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Yeah, I'm well aware that the inconsistencies are sourced in time + individual author interpretations + reader interpretations. I'm merely pointing out that the issue of Lemartes 'using the Black Rage' is a matter of one or another author failing to update/change that wording alongside the changed definition of the Black Rage. As an aside, I'm also really uncomfortable with using real life, serious and consequential conditions like PTSD or OCD in metaphor or analogy. That said, no, I would not relate the Red Thirst to OCD, or agree that the artistry of the Chapter is a form of distraction based therapy for the Red Thirst. While Blood Angels and Marines in general are human at their root and ultimately vulnerable to much of the human condition, their wills, endurance, and mental states are largely far removed from reality, and as such using real life diseases and real life therapies as analogy are flawed from the outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Fair enough. I'm just participating in the conversation and wasn't looking to change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 In the new book is lemartes part of DC or is he his own slot. Also has he got any better in the new book at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 He is an IC that must join DC if you take him. He also takes up his own Elite slot. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 In the new book is lemartes part of DC or is he his own slot. Also has he got any better in the new book at all? I don't see much reason to take Lemartes at all, unless you really want a chaplain for the DC and have no spare HQ slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 How are his stats compared to a normal Chaplain? They're resoundingly unimpressive, so I would hope at least he isn't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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