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I don't understand Lemartes

Wolf Lord Loki

By Wolf Lord Loki
in + BLOOD ANGELS +

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ThatOneMarshal Veteran

ThatOneMarshal

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Wow. Why does GW hate Chaplains? What did we do wrong? Did someone take their skull face off on the job? Did I not paddle enough people? cry.gif

Apparently down at the GW studio a lot of the guys use chaplains so they for some reason thought that people weren't using enough librarians voila needed chaplains.

Also that's really disappointing I would think he's like Arjac were he's supposed to join dc but doesn't count on the force org chart.

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ElectricPaladin Veteran

ElectricPaladin

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I really think the whole "oh no, the Elites slot is so full now" panic is overstated. Big freaking deal. I rarely use all of any of my slots in the ~1.5k games I usually play. Lemartes is the only chaplain we can take as a Elite. He gives Death Company rerolls to-hit, which is still great given how many attacks they get. He's not the beatstick he used to be, but he's still fine. I'll still use him. It's not that big a deal.

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knife&fork Veteran

knife&fork

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As an aside, I'm also really uncomfortable with using real life, serious and consequential conditions like PTSD or OCD in metaphor or analogy. unsure.png

Agreed, but for a different reason. IMHO it's going in the wrong direction.

The black rage isn't about being victimzed. It's a never ending version of the kind of adrenalin (and a bunch of other bodily chemicals) rush that happens when you come under 'stress' while already in an aggressive mindset. It's far from the traumatic experience that can lead to PTSD, if anything it's empowering.

Frankly I can't really explain it well to someone that hasn't experienced it, but I'll make an attempt.

You've all heard of the fight-freeze-flight stress responses, right? As with most things there are varying levels, so just think of this as the strongest level of 'fight' response.

Imagine having all your senses turned up to eleven, your mind working much faster and your body almost trembling with power. There's a strong separation in your mind as well.

To use a bastardized Freudian analogy: imagine the body as the Id going on pure reptile brain, with your ego and super ego holding the reins. 'You' are still in control and make the final call, but it's very different feeling from how you function normally.

It's scary stuff, but if you've ever dipped down into that state you'll understand a lot about how terrible things come to be, particularly in wars.

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ElectricPaladin Veteran

ElectricPaladin

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For the record, I don't mind using real life conditions to describe imaginary people. Actually, I think it's a good thing. I'd rather people talked about mental illness and struggled to understand it than do what they usually seem to do these days: bumble around treating people who are sick like they're evil, weak, or lying. Speaking as someone with a couple of (fairly manageable) mental illnesses, I'd rather live in a world where people talked about these things, but I sometimes had to clear up some minor inaccuracies, than our current state of affairs, where everyone is so freaked out and completely ignorant that even saying "oh, yeah, sorry about that, my anxiety disorder kicked up, but I'm back on the ball now" is sometimes treated like some sort of moderate social faux pas.

 

But I'm hardly a mouthpiece, so YMMV.

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Firepower Venerable Brother

Firepower

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For the record, I don't mind using real life conditions to describe imaginary people.  

 

Agreed, It's not like rage and fury are concepts GW made up for their WH40k canon. They are real states of mind. 

 

 

Of course, and I agree with you largely Mr. Utensils.  But EP...and this is pretty much officially off topic to continue, but as someone who also has some mental issues, I am annoyed when people that don't have the same condition brazenly toss it around in metaphor or an assumption of expertise (and sometimes even rudimentary understanding).  I simply feel uncomfortable discussing fantastical issues with metaphors of OCD and PTSD because I don't have a true personal understanding of either, so I do not want to draw parallels that may or may not exist, or risk trivializing or misinterpreting a serious issue that affects people in life altering ways.  A keyword there is 'risk,' mind you, because drawing a parallel is not inaccurate by default.  But the more central such concepts become to the conversation, the greater the risk of varying opinions to distort a very serious reality for the sake of discussing a relatively trivial subject.  

 

However, rage, fury, aggression, tempers, all of these are universally understood but flavored by personal experience, and so they can be discussed freely without any such risk.

 

This is just my personal opinion.  I'm not telling you to stop using these terms.  I'm simply saying that I am not interested in using these terms in a conversation myself, out of respect to the people who have to live with them.

 

Now, to get back on topic: How about that Lemartes, eh?  What a guy.  

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ThatOneMarshal Veteran

ThatOneMarshal

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I like all of these analogies that you guys are making mainly because I'm taking psychology as a course. :)

I've always thought if the red thirst as when the angels go full vampire and there craving for blood. It reminds me a lot of addiction. It's a disease of choice for example blood angels craving for blood gets turned up by certain things like addiction. Some angels have it worse than others and are more prone to it. Also many constantly have to live with it and there is always a craving for it. Some see as important as survival. Black rage I've always seen as when marines go into hulk smash mode except they can't come out of it. I guess a way of seeing it is when you have memories of say your grandfather who fought in a war. You share all his emotions including his rage and pain. Instead of say german soldiers that your grandfather fought there now people around you, but you don't know it.

 

Now to return to studying for a psychology test tomorrow on B.F Skinner. Hey maybe the blood angels might be able to get rid of the red thirst by using positve reinforcement! If you don't drink the blood of our enemies then you get a cookie.

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Karhedron Venerable Brother

Karhedron

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I really think the whole "oh no, the Elites slot is so full now" panic is overstated. Big freaking deal. I rarely use all of any of my slots in the ~1.5k games I usually play. Lemartes is the only chaplain we can take as a Elite. He gives Death Company rerolls to-hit, which is still great given how many attacks they get.

I think this is a pretty good analysis. Given that we get 4 Elite slots in BSF and only 2 HQ, I can see Lemartes being useful if you want to use up your HQ slots on Priests or Librarians but still give your DC a bit more hitting power.

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Daddywarcrimes Battle-Brother

Daddywarcrimes

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I really think the whole "oh no, the Elites slot is so full now" panic is overstated. Big freaking deal. I rarely use all of any of my slots in the ~1.5k games I usually play. Lemartes is the only chaplain we can take as a Elite. He gives Death Company rerolls to-hit, which is still great given how many attacks they get. He's not the beatstick he used to be, but he's still fine. I'll still use him. It's not that big a deal.

 

I would respectfully disagree.  With everything scoring, and the BA detachments lacking ObSec, Troops are the least important things in an army.  That gives me even more incentive to fill up my Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support choices with ultra-efficient threats and take 2 squads of Tacticals to keep my army legal and be cheap extra bodies when I need them.

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ChapelXIII Veteran

ChapelXIII

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I am taking Lemartes (old 3rd edition breakdance model) in my go to list. He takes an Elite choice, which is fine for my list as I ran out of HQs, and still want a chaplain in the list. For an extra 40 points over a regular chaplain he get a Jump pack, FnP, Rage, Mastercrafted on his Crozius, and his Fury Unbound rule. I think it is a fair shake. 

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JamesI Venerable Brother

JamesI

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So I was wondering when did we lose Liturgies of Hate?  Didn't that give us a re-roll on the charge awhile back?

Astorath has rerolls to wound on the charge for DC.  All chaplains (including Astorath) have zealot which gives rerolls to hit first round of combat(even if you are charged)

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Raktra Veteran

Raktra

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I never thought of this whole PTSD etc. comparison malarky. I thought of it like insanely spicy food. Mephiston swallowed it without getting ill, Lemartes needs to run to the pooper now and then.

 

There was far less thought put into mine.

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ChapelXIII Veteran

ChapelXIII

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Now that I think about it I'm still going to run lemartes. Why? I love his model and fluff. Him mephiston and Dante are probably my favorite characters in the book. Also DC with jump packs are more appealing which buffed him. I'm looking at ebay and Jesus his old model looked horrible.

His Breakdance model? Yeah it is pretty bad, but I have it so I am totally using it. 

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