Are bolter armed Death Company pointless?

[marvmoogy]

Just after opunions on the above - what are your thoughts?

[Blindhamster]

bolter DC with jump packs, make an excellent unit for quick fire support.

[Corbulox]

I dont think they are useless, i plan to drop pod in a unit of 8 or so

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't like 'em. Never have. It feels wrong to take a unit that's optimized for close combat and give them bolters. Maybe they have some quirks that make them valuable, but it feels like I'm paying points for advantages I don't want to use, and that annoys me.

[psychodough]

rapid fire bolter then charge with 4 attacks each is nothing to scoff at! I like to mix a few into my DC units to add that little bit of fire support and losing 3-5 attacks over all is not that big a deal.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

rapid fire bolter then charge with 4 attacks each is nothing to scoff at! I like to mix a few into my DC units to add that little bit of fire support and losing 3-5 attacks over all is not that big a deal.

They are pretty sweet, I agree.  I'd build a few of them if you don't have some.

[ElectricPaladin]

 

rapid fire bolter then charge with 4 attacks each is nothing to scoff at! I like to mix a few into my DC units to add that little bit of fire support and losing 3-5 attacks over all is not that big a deal.

They are pretty sweet, I agree.  I'd build a few of them if you don't have some.

 

 

The one counter is that you aren't really losing 3 to 5 attacks. You're losing 3 to 5 attacks per turn. Because death company is fearless, 3+ armor, and native FNP, you are looking at a unit that can stick it out through a lengthy combat and come out on top. I maintain that those lost attacks will add up in the long run. I'd rather kit out my death company to tie up my opponent's hardcore nasties for as long as possible, or even win the fight and take on a second target!

[Corbulox]

i guess you as with most things would kit them out to complement the rest of your army

[ContemptuousAngel]

As to the above, I'd agree with you but I've always felt the best use of the DC was to send them after soft backfield troops. Mine are a mixed squad with bolters, hand flames, a couple inferno pistols, a couple bolt pistols, lots of special weapons.

Now that they have rage I think there's mo reason not to take at least a few bolters in a large squad.

[Pascalnz]

add dante, charge anytime you want:)

[Pathstrider]

Last edition, when jump packs were so expensive, I used foot bolter armed death company all the time. I easily made up the attacks over the game with bolter shots as they advanced, and armed some of them with power fists so I wasn't losing attacks anyway.

 

Now with cheaper jump packs, I'm not so sure. However, bolters do mean that you have more flexibly to hang back if you need too.

[David Ravel]

Unless I am sure of going into CC first (for exemple, against Nurgle Deamons or something like that), I don't see the reason of NOT taking bolters. It gives you another free attack at 24'', ap 5 (which your CCW aren't), it gives you another shot in the overwatch (small bonus but still). In the end, if you charge, you're still gonna hit one time more than the other guy (since you shoot first then charge vs having CCW and pistol). And that attack is still before the other guy (if someone was gonna mention the ini 5 thing). So that means : do you prefer having an ap 5 or a str 5 extra attack ? Since I mentioned that you get another extra one at 24'', and that when you deepstrike you drastically improve the unit, I prefer to get that ap 5 attack. All in all, I'm not saying CCW aren't good, but personnally, the way I see and play the BA, I won't take them, I prefer bolters. What makes the kill are really the fact that you get 2 base attack each turn on 3+ and FNP bodies which can get some ''hidden'' special weapon (like the glorious Thunder Hammer); it's not the fact that you get 1 more attack per guy. 

 

If someone runs the FOC with the +1 ini, with tons of jump pack all over the place, and wants to profit from charging first (furious charge, +1 ini, hammer of wrath, etc.), then yes it can be usefull. But I rarely see that, so I prefer to ''play safe'' with bolters. Bolters are still good weapon, especially on guy that can charge afterwards and get FNP for free. 

[InquisitorBlack]

Relentless with bolters is a curse and a blessing. Being able to rapid fire and then charge with 4 attacks each is extremely powerful. However, against anything except for hearty targets like MCs and multiwound models, the bolter volley will often greatly reduce your chances of making the charge distance.

 

I personally would much rather my DC make their devastating charge than fire a few shots first, as they protected from retaliatory shooting once they are locked in combat. I very often (most of the time actually) pass up my bolt pistol shots prior to charging. Killing a couple of infantry models is not worth it when it means you go from needing 6" to charge to 8".

[Reglor]

I give bolters to my DC with thunder hammers and power fists.  I can't get an extra attack from a pistol so I might as well get the extra shot.

[depthcharge12]

I give mine bolters because they have to deep strike as per the rules for my FT formation. I'd rather get the ap on the attacks when needed and it might turn into killing a unit so you can charge your DC into another unit ;)

 

Besides I toss a chaplain in there anyway for the rerolls to hit so I'm not losing much. They already have a crap ton of attacks to begin with and I've yet to not succeed in cc with them.

[Bonzi]

If you do the math of 10 DC with bolters double tapping and charging a MEQ opponent vs 10 DC with pistol & ccw shooting and charging you find that the total difference in kills is insignificant.  Pistols pull ahead when you are pairing them with power weapons, bolters pull ahead with specialist weapons and on naked DC as the bolters have an increased kill range over pistols.  The only downside to bolters is that you might shoot yourself out of charge range.

 

So:

 

If you have a specialist weapon, give them a bolter.

 

If you have a regular power weapon, give them a bolt pistol.

 

If they running bare with jump packs or assault vehicles, flavor to your taste.

 

If they are running bare with a Rhino or Drop Pod, give them bolters.

[Black Marshal]

I have said it before and bonzi said it right before me. By the math it is almost exactly the same. But with the bolters you are killing models in a unit before it fires over watch and before it hits you back in close combat. Bolters are never going to wipe a unit and if you play smart you should not miss your charge range because you killed two or three models in shooting. But those two or three models will make it so you take less damage in assault phase. I really feel it is the optimal way to play death company as it makes use of all of their special abilities.

[Red-beard]

I like the pistol/CCW load out for two reasons:

 

1) I don't really WANT to kill a bunch of models with bolt guns before I charge. I want to ensure I make my charge and any units I kill make the charge distance further and increase the probability of me not getting into close combat.

 

2) I don't want to just win close combat, I want to win it BIG....so all the extra CCW attacks are needed. I want to devastate the enemy squad to the point that they are making a morale check with a -7 penalty. I want to crush them on my initiative 5 attack so they don't have much to hit me back with....reducing the chance of me losing any DC on my opponent's attack. I want to sweep the entire enemy squad off the map and be done with them. Ideally, it takes me two turns to sweep them so I come out of combat at the end of my opponent's turn, but if it happens in one turn, so be it. What I DON'T want to have happen is go in to CC and roll poorly, doing minimal damage to my opponent, allowing them to hit me back and kill some of my squad. 

[timwrightii]

What Red Beard said. I hate missing a charge because I killed too many guys. I often don't even fire my pistols to ensure I get the charge

[Joasht]

Roughly half my unit has Bolters. I put the bolter guys in front so that they are the first to die, but it also gives me some 24" shooting when I need it early in the game. Also, TH and PF DC automatically get Bolters :)

[Captain Caine 24th]

I don't think they are pointless. Range + relentless USR lends some really great tactical flexibility (I was worried death company would lose relentless). Jump packs do balance that range difference in bolt pistols and bolters a bit.

 

I think there is a subtle change that may make bolters less desired. Each death company marine can now be equipped with a specialized pistol, and I seem to recall it used to be 1 in 5 could do so. So, instead of a few power swords I think I'd like to experiment with a plasma death company squad. It could have a dual role as a AP2 killer and still have a lot of hand to hand attacks for light troops. As always wargear gets expensive, but there's usually a sweet spot. Even a couple of infernus pistols might help give them an edge. I bring this up because I think death company doesn't fit one role, I think it can fit many depending on how you kit it out. With that said I think bolters do have a role, albeit the less glamorous backfield clean up type job.  

 

I'm starting to get the impression that blood angels don't have a single unit that is so good it can be spammed across the army. Instead I think you take various units like terminators, dreadnoughts, sanguinary guard (which can fill very similar roles) but you kit them out for the purpose you want as each has slightly different strengths.

 

You like bolters--do bolters, they're far from worthless.

[depthcharge12]

Bolters on jump packs have a big threat range :))) especially for those last minute snatches by cultist and other gribblies

[bushman101]

I like to sprinkle in a few bolters. I like the option of charging or staying put and shooting. Especially against things with a higher Intiative

[marvmoogy]

Thanks for all the replies guys - some interesting points of view!

 

I'm really undecided at the mo....may play a few games with proxies to see how I can make them work

[marvmoogy]

Thanks for all the replies guys - some interesting points of view!

 

I'm really undecided at the mo....may play a few games with proxies to see how I can make them work