Red Thirst, Black Rage, and Blood Rage?

[Firepower]

So I brought this up in another thread on Lemartes, but I think it deserves its own discussion.  In short, I'm wondering about issues of what exactly the Red Thirst and Black Rage are.  What is Blood Rage, you say?  Well, apparently, it may have been the original Black Rage.
 
Here we go-
 
The distinction between the Red Thirst and the Black Rage is not as clear cut as some people seem to think it is.  Or, there was a rewrite along the way which tried to separate the two more distinctly and did a poor job of it.  Originally, it was more along the lines that the Red Thirst was the compulsion for drinking blood, but also the source of the Blood Angels aggression.  Succumbing to the Red Thirst was when the brother began to have visions of Sanguinius, and lose his sense of self.  
 
Angels of Death codex, p.21
 
 

The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it humility and understanding of their own failings which make the Blood Angels the most truly noble of the Legiones Astartes.  Typically the onset of the Red Thirst is accompanied by visions of death.  many of those who suffer from it are tormented by visions of the final terrible death of their Primarch.  It may be that this madness presages the onset of a terrible debilitative stage of the disease and that this is one reason why Blood Angels join the Death Company, preferring a clean death in service of humanity rather than a slow descent into madness and possibly heresy.
 
The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself.  There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

 
 
And later on, the Death Company unit entry on, p. 29
 
 

The Chaplains of the Blood Angels watch carefully for any sign of the Blood Rage, as it is called, and take any that are afflicted to one side.  These doomed warriors are arrayed in special armour and joined together in a unit called the Death Company.

 
 
So, apparently it used to be the Blood Rage, too.
 
I'm not sure exactly when things got more muddied and turned about by this Red Thirst rewrite and Black Rage stuff.
 
The first I know of it is the special rule Black Rage in 3rd (maybe 4th?  The 1998 book) edition codex.
 
 

Blood Angels are gripped by the spirit of Sanguinius and are prone to entering a berserk frenzy of bloodletting in battle.  This is terrifying to behold as they unleash their righteous fury, butchering any enemy that lie in their path...Blood Angels are so eager for bloodshed they become barely controllable in combat.

 
Followed by the adjacent Death Company rule
 

On the eve of battle, the Blood Angels kneel in prayer and their thoughts turn to their Primarch.  Some are overcome by the gene-memory of their Primarch's violent death and succumb to the Black Rage.

 
 
So in the first quote, it says that all Blood Angels are prone to going nuts in battle, to one degree or another, regardless of whether or not they fall so far as to be forced into the Death Company.  Meanwhile, the Red Thirst isn't mentioned in either notation.  It is mentioned as a special rule for the Death Company unit later on, and the Red Thirst rule simply states that they have to move towards the nearest enemy if not under the leadership of a Chaplain or Sanguinary High Priest, which again underlines the Red Thirst as a source of anger. 
 
Lemartes entry called Iron-Willed says that:
 

Lemartes can channel the Black Rage instead of being overwhelmed by it

 
Even more confusing, Moriar has the same rule as Death Company, having to move towards enemy units and assault if possible.  But instead of being called the Red Thirst as it is for the Death Company, it's called Black Rage.
 
A short story at the end of the dex has a Marine who goes a little nuts in a fight, getting super angry and tearing his way through the line until he's side by side with the Death Company, but he pulls himself back from the brink.  At the end:
 

He could understand their hatred, their burning anger that seemed to set them afire from head to toe.  He too could feel the Black Rage, suffusing his entire body and soul with the pain of Sanguinius.  For a moment he had let it spill forth, but he had controlled it.  The Black Rage had not claimed him.  Not today.

 
So here, we have the Black Rage referred to as the anger of Sanguinius, which every one of the Angels can feel in times of duress, without necessarily being consumed by it.  Which is pretty much how the Red Thirst was described in Angels of Death.
 
In short, the Red Thirst and the Black Rage have become pretty confused as time went on.

[dusara217]

To the best of my knowledge, the Red Thirst is an inherent part of the Blood Angels as much as the urge to eat food is a part of you. The Blood Angels ALWAYS have to resist the urge to drink blood when blood is present.

Whereas the Black Rage is something always lurking on the edge of a Blood Angel's mind; waiting to devour him. The Black Rage can occur in many different ways, but it always makes the Red Thirst irresistible and forces the Blood Angel to drink blood upon succumbing to the Rage. The Black Rage can send Blood Angels back to the times of Sanguinius, and they may believe that they are Sanguinius and others are great heroes from that time, or that they are heroes alongside other heroes whilst any enemies are seen as the Traitor Marines of the time. However, this is not always the case and the Blood Angel can still, to a limited extent, still be aware of who he is and/or where he is (this primarily only happens in the early stages before the Blood Angel has fully succumbed), or the Blood Angel can just look around in a haze of rage and see nothing but foes and prey to be devoured - even among his own brethren. The Black Rage can also manifest itself in a host of other ways.

[Firepower]

To the best of my knowledge, the Red Thirst is an inherent part of the Blood Angels as much as the urge to eat food is a part of you. The Blood Angels ALWAYS have to resist the urge to drink blood when blood is present.

 

Yes, but the Red Thirst also originally was the genesis of their anger, which was as ever present as the urge to drink blood.  Or to look at it another way, the Blood Angels always have to resist the urge to drink blood, as well as abnormal anger.  When the Black Rage came around in the fluff, it apparently largely took on the role of being the source of their anger, but people seem to separate the two as a procession, wherein Black Rage is when one goes over the edge into a point of no return, and begin seeing things.  However, several old-ish (post Angels of Death) sources show that the Angels feel the Black Rage all the time, and moving to the Death Company is a matter of their finally succumbing to that flaw...or perhaps to the Red Thirst, rather than the Black Rage.  Again, sources are incoherent.

 

Ergo, while the apparent consensus here on the forum that the Black Rage - the compulsion to commit violence and the psychic inheritance of Sanguinius' anger and memories- is something 'over there,' while the Red Thirst - the urge/need to drink blood - is the one constant, older evidence suggests that this is incorrect.  Both are ever-present, and while the Black Rage has clumsily separated the anger aspect from the Red Thirst, I don't know of any support for the notion that the Red Thirst is constant while the Black Rage is exceptional, at least by these definitions of the terms..

 

I grew up with those definitions, because I grew up with those sources (the ones I sited here).  Some time has passed and books have been written that I haven't read, so which of them changed these definitions?  Or are the common uses of the terms here not actually founded in established fluff, and simply wrong?  The new definitions don't make much sense to me, especially as they do not account for an unnatural level of anger as being a constant in the Angels' lives, but rather appoint it to their eventual fall beyond the brink into madness.  If the Angels indeed do not deal with a constant heightened compulsion for aggression anymore, I find that to be a serious failure of newer fluff.  Constantly, permanently struggling with an urge to drink blood is not as inspiring as struggling against a permanently constant and unnaturally, inhumanly strong temper.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep, and when we reach the 5th Edition codex, we have them as separate things with the Red Thirst being a general, berserk battle-lust while the Black Rage is where they are consumed by the memories of Sanguinius.

 

Although one thing to note(or at least it is just my opinion) is that I think since it has gotten so muddied, is that GW has gone with a "Just roll with it" policy.

 

One thing that's been common from the outset is that the Successor Chapters suffered from the Flaws in various degrees.

 

With Andy Smillie, we're being introduced to the concept that they also suffer in various dosages. For example, in Trial By Blood, we see what the mind of a Death Company Marine looks like and it is described as this massive inferno of hate and rage that just drives them to kill their enemies and drink their blood. Rather a bit like the Red Thirst, no? But that would almost seem to go against the tidbits that say that the Death Company is made up only of those who fall to the Black Rage and suffer visions of Sanguinius.

 

But what if all the Flesh Tearers suffer from is a combination of the two? The simple berserk fury of the Black Rage perpetuating the battle-lust of the Red Thirst?

 

And then we throw in various mixtures throughout the Successors and..... Well no wonder there is no definite explanation beyond general concepts.

 

I also believe this can be applied to individual descendants of the IX Legion. That's why you get individuals like Astorath, Lemartes, Mephiston and Seth, individuals who should have fallen ten times over, still pushing along and doing what they can to control it in others.

 

Because the true curse of the Flaw, is that everyone suffers alone because no two suffer the same.

[Firepower]

Because the true curse of the Flaw, is that everyone suffers alone because no two suffer the same.

 

Or perhaps the true Flaw is simply that no two authors can agree on a definition? ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

It's also true that what the Black Rage means has evolved over the years. The original fluff seemed to describe it as primarily a state of rage that also contained some delusions. The newer fluff - and Deathstorm, the very newest - seems to portray it more as primarily a state of delusion that happens to be a delusion of a time of great conflict and bloodshed (ie. the Siege of Terra and the battle aboard the Vengeful Spirit)...

Twice in Deathstorm, Captain Karlean has more-or-less coherent conversations with Death Company marines. In one he has to "play along" a little to convince Raphen that he is one of his brother Blood Angels at the walls of the Imperial Palace during the Siege of Terra, in another the dreadnought Cassor the Damned actually admits that he knows that he isn't quite sane - implying that he might be aware, on some level or intermittently, that he is not actually fighting traitor legions on Terra - but intends to fight anyway. This interpretation of the Black Rage shows the Marines who suffer from it as actually pretty reasonable folks who recognize their allied as fellow Blood Angels and the enemies as enemies (even if they inevitably think they are Daemons or Chaos Marines rather than whatever they really are). They are kind of manic, but not frothing uncontrollable murder machines

It's interesting.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Because the true curse of the Flaw, is that everyone suffers alone because no two suffer the same.

Or perhaps the true Flaw is simply that no two authors can agree on a definition? ;)

If you can find me a series that has multiple authors in which that never happens at all, I will bow down and worship the ground you walk on. Sinceriously. I don't mean to be rude or aggressive or anything. It's just anything I've read that has at least two authors will always have two viewpoints.

 

It's the job of us, the readers, to decide how we interpret those viewpoints. Which ends up creating a further mess because you end up getting individuals who preach that the Space Marines do not worship the Emperor with one breath while preaching the holy gospel of the Index Astartes which say that Space Marines do worship the God-Emperor with the next breath.

 

It's a muddy world out there. We just choose how we mud in it. ;)

[Firepower]

EP, that's an interesting concept. In fairness, since the beginning, when the Black Rage was simply the Blood Rage, people were not inducted into the Death Company because they were completely nuts. They were inducted because their battle against the decline into madness had distinctly become a lost cause. The Death Company exists to let Blood Angels die with honor before they become wretched, blind monsters. So moments of clarity (important key word: moments) among brothers in the Death Company aren't inherently a fluff faux pas.

Because the true curse of the Flaw, is that everyone suffers alone because no two suffer the same.

Or perhaps the true Flaw is simply that no two authors can agree on a definition?

If you can find me a series that has multiple authors in which that never happens at all, I will bow down and worship the ground you walk on. Sinceriously. I don't mean to be rude or aggressive or anything. It's just anything I've read that has at least two authors will always have two viewpoints.

It's the job of us, the readers, to decide how we interpret those viewpoints. Which ends up creating a further mess because you end up getting individuals who preach that the Space Marines do not worship the Emperor with one breath while preaching the holy gospel of the Index Astartes which say that Space Marines do worship the God-Emperor with the next breath.

It's a muddy world out there. We just choose how we mud in it.

I have enough people worshiping the ground I walk on already...which means none. Who wants that kind of pressure in their life?

A very fair point. However, there are of course degrees. There's personal flair, and then there's a casual disregard for most everything. I'm of course not pointing fingers at any particular author, or saying that any particular one went super batnuts in their interpretation because I can't think of any single individual that did as much. I do not mean to be that annoying guy standing on a soap box and screaming "WAAAAARD!"

It's been a gradual degradation. But from what I can see, I feel reasonably justified in calling it a degradation all the same. Not degraded in the sense that "This is crap," but more along the lines of a loss in cohesion, where things have become so muddied that there is a severe, if nearly total lack of definitivity™.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point, lol. In fact, I think I said I agree with you, just that I pointed out the modern interpretations sans Deathstorm and then said that my personal opinion is to roll with it. Which is, "it affects each Descendant Chapter in various, broad strokes and then affects it each individual descendant in more specific strokes."

 

Case in point, Andy Smillie's soul-burning Death Company marine versus The Dreadnought Castor.

[Firepower]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point, lol. In fact, I think I said I agree with you, just that I pointed out the modern interpretations sans Deathstorm and then said that my personal opinion is to roll with it. Which is, "it affects each Descendant Chapter in various, broad strokes and then affects it each individual descendant in more specific strokes."

Case in point, Andy Smillie's soul-burning Death Company marine versus The Dreadnought Castor.

Yes, we largely seem to agree.

However, I find it odd (and I admit, somewhat annoying) that while there is a flux over the years in terms, consensus does seem to exist on the board: Red Thirst is hunger for blood, Black Rage is hallucinating and anger, and if you're touched by it, you go Death Company. I do not understand where these definitions or the certainty behind them comes from. I think that's my main point for this thread...I think. As confusing as other people are, I always find the person most adept at confusing me is me.

I think my main issue is that I read these definitions in several places on the board, saw little to no contention, and thought "When the hell did this happen, and why? Those aren't the Blood Angels I knew when I was a kid. Damned whippersnappers and there rap musics, and their chinstrap beards, and their instant macaroni and cheese cups!"

[ElectricPaladin]

EP, that's an interesting concept.  In fairness, since the beginning, when the Black Rage was simply the Blood Rage, people were not inducted into the Death Company because they were completely nuts.  They were inducted because their battle against the decline into madness had distinctly become a lost cause.  The Death Company exists to let Blood Angels die with honor before they become wretched, blind monsters.  So moments of clarity (important key word: moments) among brothers in the Death Company aren't inherently a fluff faux pas. 

 

True, true.

 

The other thing that interests me is a throwaway line, I can't remember where I saw it, something about how the afflicted brother is inducted into the Death Company if the degeneration can't be halted. That leads me to wonder... what do Blood Angels and their successors do to try to stop the Black Rage? How often does it work?

[Firepower]

 

EP, that's an interesting concept.  In fairness, since the beginning, when the Black Rage was simply the Blood Rage, people were not inducted into the Death Company because they were completely nuts.  They were inducted because their battle against the decline into madness had distinctly become a lost cause.  The Death Company exists to let Blood Angels die with honor before they become wretched, blind monsters.  So moments of clarity (important key word: moments) among brothers in the Death Company aren't inherently a fluff faux pas. 

 

True, true.

 

The other thing that interests me is a throwaway line, I can't remember where I saw it, something about how the afflicted brother is inducted into the Death Company if the degeneration can't be halted. That leads me to wonder... what do Blood Angels and their successors do to try to stop the Black Rage? How often does it work?

 

 

The break-off point for 'Death Company or no Death Company?' most likely changes from Chapter to Chapter.  It doesn't sound like an exact science.  And some Chapters which have a harder or easier time with it (Flesh Tearers and Blood Drinkers respectively) probably have different statutes as well.

[Kol Saresk]

Firepower: Ah. I actualy think that came from James Swallows' series as I remember there being a big difference pointed out between the Black rage and the Red Thirst, especially at the end of the second book and then in the following third book.

 

And then it was reinforced with the 5th Edition Codex.

[Firepower]

Firepower: Ah. I actualy think that came from James Swallows' series as I remember there being a big difference pointed out between the Black rage and the Red Thirst, especially at the end of the second book and then in the following third book.

 

And then it was reinforced with the 5th Edition Codex.

 

In those texts, was the Black Rage wholly separate?  Did the Blood Angels always have to keep their anger in check, or was it a sudden, random onset with no reversal?  

 

The Black Rage in origins, as I noted, was a constant struggle, and ever present.  Recruitment into the Death Company occurred when a brother could no longer win that fight.  The common consensus around here seems to be to the contrary.

[simison]

Ironically, the book that could have solidified this foundation didn't quite do a complete job at it. Fear to Tread has marines who enter into a berserk mindset, but seem to be completely devoted to drinking blood. So, we have both blood drinking & insane rage mixed together with the only fallen marine we see in the novel.

[Firepower]

Ironically, the book that could have solidified this foundation didn't quite do a complete job at it. Fear to Tread has marines who enter into a berserk mindset, but seem to be completely devoted to drinking blood. So, we have both blood drinking & insane rage mixed together with the only fallen marine we see in the novel.

 

True, but in that circumstance the psychic resonance of Sanguinius' death doesn't exist yet, so it can't quite be the same as the 40k version.  Good book though.  I think the marine Sanguinius has to kill in the beginning is a good representation of the final steps of the Black Rage, when there simply is no sense of self.  The Blood Angel simply ceases to exist as a person, and is nothing but blind rage and a need to feast on blood.  That's the fate the Death Company was created to avoid.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, this is weird.

 

I guess there is too much text so I'm going to be double posting out of necessity.

 

 

 

Firepower: Ah. I actualy think that came from James Swallows' series as I remember there being a big difference pointed out between the Black rage and the Red Thirst, especially at the end of the second book and then in the following third book.

 

And then it was reinforced with the 5th Edition Codex.

In those texts, was the Black Rage wholly separate? Did the Blood Angels always have to keep their anger in check, or was it a sudden, random onset with no reversal?

 

The Black Rage in origins, as I noted, was a constant struggle, and ever present. Recruitment into the Death Company occurred when a brother could no longer win that fight. The common consensus around here seems to be to the contrary.

In Swallows' series, yes they were wholly separate. The Red Thirst was treated as the thing you guarded against and could be drawn back from if you didn't fall too far while the Black Rage was the irreversible "This! Is! TERRA!" syndrome.

 

Specifically at the end of the second book, the Blood Angels en masse are described as falling to the Red Thirst while he was very careful to restrict the Black rage to those suffering the delusions, which was only in the first book, as I recall.

 

In the 5th Edition, they are treated as separate things, except in one line I just found where it says the Red Thirst can lead to the Black Rage. It is still treated as two separate concepts, just two that are related in a cause and effect manner.

 

 

Spoilered due to massive size.

 

“Just as the Emperor’s fall marked the beginning of a slow decay for the Imperium, so did Sanguinius’ death at the Warmaster’s hands usher in the slow degeneration of the Blood Angels. Proud and beauteous though the Blood Angels remained after the loss of their Primarch, something sinister had settled in their souls, a Red Thirst that could not be satisfied, a dark hunger that brought only insanity. Every Blood Angel knows that if death in battle does not take him then, sooner or later, the madness within his soul will, for it will manifest as a Black Rage that cannot be sated and ends only in death. Little wonder is it then that the Chapter has a reputation for assailing the foe at the closest of quarters, thinking little of their own safety and less of the odds of victory. For one of the Blood Angels, mortal peril is as nothing when compared to the threat of one’s honour betrayed from within. Better a clean and righteous death in battle than the profane agonies of insanity.

It would have been easy for the children of Sanguinius to surrender to their dark urgings, to turn astray from the path set for them by Primarch and honoured Emperor, yet the Chapter has never lost faith nor fallen from grace. To this day, near ten thousand years since the death of their Primarch, the Blood Angels defend Mankind with all the vigour and ferocity they displayed in the time of Sanguinius. However, they are a dying Chapter, for each passing year battle-brothers succumb to the Red Thirst at an ever-increasing rate, or hurl themselves into hopeless battle so that they might escape its grasp.

 

 

“It may well be that in the millennia to come the Blood Angels will be no more than a name in the histories of Mankind, a fading memory conjured up in tales of battle and songs of great deeds. Should this come to pass, the Blood Angels mean to ensure that their legend is remembered as one of heroism and service, that they might repay the trust of their Primarch and their Emperor, and serve as an example to Mankind in whatever bleak days lie ahead. So it is that the Blood Angels fight on against the enemies of the Imperium, holding the Red Thirst in check through sheer force of will. Whatever the Blood Angels’ flaws, nowhere in the Imperium can truer servants of the Emperor be found.”

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

“THE FLAW

Although it is known to but a few, the Blood Angels are a dying Chapter, for they suffer from a dreadful flaw. This Chapter, once the most golden and blessed of all the Chapters, now shuns the company of its fellows where possible. Some, it is said, are driven by a terrible death-seeking madness, brought on by visions of the death of their Primarch. Others are afflicted by the terrible Red Thirst, a craving for blood which some claim may be the first signs of a descent into Chaos. It is known that some amongst the Blood Angels themselves spend much time seeking a cure for this condition, although most have resigned themselves to the slow and terrible decline of their Chapter.

 

“Some say that it is because Sanguinius was more touched by Chaos than the others during his flight through the Warp. They cite the fact that he possessed wings – an obvious mutation – to support their case. Their argument runs that the gene-seed that was extracted from him was flawed even before the first Blood Angels were created, and thus terrible consequences were preordained. Others deny this, citing that the Emperor himself trusted the winged Primarch implicitly, and oversaw the creation of the Blood Angels. Certain heretics counter this with the argument that the Emperor also trusted Horus…

Other scholars claim that the Flaw lies in the process that is used to create each new generation of Blood Angels. They assert that it has crept in through the generations because the Blood Angels use the process known as Insanguination to activate the gene-seed.

 

All Space Marine Chapters use gene-seed to trigger and control the processes that transform an ordinary mortal into a Space Marine. The gene-seed is encoded with all the information needed to reshape ordinary cell clusters into the special organs Space Marines possess. The gene-seed contains viral machines which rebuild the body according to the biological template contained within it. However, even from the beginning, there was never a set way to activate the gene-seed.

 

Indeed, at the time when the Space Marine Legions were created, the process was still highly experimental and many different ways of controlling and managing the transformation were tried. This led to the Space Wolves using the ritual known as Blooding, the Imperial Fists using the process known as the Hand of Faith, the White Scars conducting the Rites of the Risen Moon and the Blood Angels using Insanguination.

 

The process of Insanguination was originally triggered by injecting the Aspirants with tiny samples of their Primarch’s own blood. This practice, of course, ended with the tragic death of Sanguinius. However, some of his blood was kept and preserved within the Red Grail. The living blood could not be kept this way for long and so it was injected into the veins of the Sanguinary Priests. In this way they became living hosts to the power of Sanguinius. To this day, the drinking of the collected blood of the assembled Sanguinary Priests from the Red Grail is part of the induction ritual for all Blood Angels Priests.

It is from these Sanguinary Priests that blood is taken to begin the transformation of Aspirants into Space Marines. It is possible that over the countless generations since the time of the Horus Heresy these cells have mutated, slowly at first but more quickly in recent years, and that errors in replication have resulted in the Flaw.

 

Whatever the reason for the Flaw, it is certain that its hold over the Blood Angels has become ever stronger, and their tendency towards self-destructive madness ever greater. Unless it can be halted and reversed, the Chapter is doomed to extinction.

 

THE RED THIRST

Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in “abeyance in every waking moment. Few battle-brothers can hold this Red Thirst in check unceasingly – it is far from unknown for Blood Angels to temporarily succumb to its lure at the height of battle.

 

The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels’ darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it a humility and understanding of their own failings which make them truly the most noble of the Space Marines.

 

The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

 

There have been incidents when the Blood Angels have been stationed on distant worlds where members of the local population have gone missing only to turn up later drained of blood. It is possible that this is the work of cultists seeking to discredit the Chapter. It may even be that some of the more superstitious local citizens have taken to offering up sacrifices to their god-like visitors. It may also be possible that these folk have been killed by Blood Angels overcome by the Red Thirst.

 

THE BLACK RAGE

Blood Angels are unique amongst the Space Marines in that deeply engrained in their gene-seed is the encoded experience of their Primarch, and most deeply imprinted of all is the memory of Sanguinius’ final battle with Horus. Sometimes, on the eve of battle, an event or circumstance will trigger this ‘race memory’ and the battle-brother’s mind is suddenly wrenched into the distant past. The Black Rage overcomes the Blood Angel as the memories and consciousness of Sanguinius intrude upon his mind, and dire events ten thousand years old flood into the present. A warrior overcome with the Black Rage appears half mad with fury; he is unable to distinguish past from present and does not recognise his comrades. He may believe he is Sanguinius upon the eve of his destruction, and the bloody battles of the Horus Heresy are raging all around him. Such a battle-brother stands at the end of his travails, for his path leads only to the Death Company, where he and the Chapter’s other damned souls will fight one final battle in Sanguinius’ name.”

 

 

So the 5th Edition Codex basically portrays it as the Red Thirst is something everyone suffers and that the Black Rage is an acute, terminal symptom that will only affect a portion of the afflicted.

[Firepower]

Well, that's definitely a change from the old days. A somewhat acute one at that. I suppose I will continue among my Blood Angel cousins/brothers as I do among my Templar charges: maintaining the old ways with fundamentalist furor and brow beating the youngins for their ignorance. Welcome to the world of the Paddleum, Blood Angels.

Aren't ya'll glad to have me back?

By the way, buku points for such a thorough job, Kol.

[Kol Saresk]

Stop it, you're making me blush. :wub:

 

I still stand by my opinion of "varying degrees" though, which definitely leaves an open interpretation for "just how different are they?"

 

EDIT: What I'm saying is that it's still okay for you to believe in the older fluff. :D

[Firepower]

Stop it, you're making me blush.

I still stand by my opinion of "varying degrees" though, which definitely leaves an open interpretation for "just how different are they?"

Well, this change is a matter of constantly fighting off a thirst for blood, versus constantly fighting off an overwhelming rage. The former is a lot simpler than the latter. I find the Blood Angels a lot less inspiring if they only have to struggle with the bubbling insane rage in their blood in a sudden acute circumstance, rather than resisting it their whole lives.

I wonder if I'll have to commission a new Paddleum for use on Blood Angels. I might break the one I have now if I have to use it on two whole subforums. Perhaps one with lots of jewels, and some fangs on the end...

[Kol Saresk]

Well on the one hand, I should point out I'm lacking the current codex. On the other had, I should also point out the example of Andy Smillie's Flesh Tearers(which is almost just as recent) that shows the Flesh tearers dealing with the Red Thirst as though it were an all-consuming inferno.

 

Basically, interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. There is recent publication that still supports the older views.

 

It's up to whether or not you believe that or not. One gives you full justification while the other is the path you want to walk.

[walpurgisnacht]

As an RPGer from the 90's, one system I remember well was the World of Darkness; specifically, Vampire the Masquerade. In that system there were two concepts that defined the pathos of vampirism:

1-thirst for blood

2-humanity/loss thereof

 

Now before we go off topic debating space vampires and whether they sparkle, I want to say that those concepts resonate with MY interpretation of the Flaw of the Blood Angels.

 

1: Thirst for blood. According to fluff, the sons of Sanguinius are drawn to close quarters combat, even to their detriment. They struggle to maintain a mask of control in the face of combat, some times submitting to the Red Thirst in battle to pull back from the abyss afterwards. It is their sorrow, it is their strength.

2:Humanity/the Black Rage. In the fluff it is written that before battle, in meditation some battle brothers lose themselves in visions of the greatest battle fought to date. Gene memories subsume the honorable marine and he enters beast mode.

 

How I see the Blood Angels is that they are honorable monsters that fight the darkest beasts, external and internal.

[tsijben]

Some, it is said, are driven by a terrible death-seeking madness, brought on by visions of the death of their Primarch. Others are afflicted by the terrible Red Thirst, a craving for blood which some claim may be the first signs of a descent into Chaos.

 

This is what the new Codex tells us.

Black Rage: Insane due to the visions of Sanguinius' death.

Red Thirst: The Flaw which causes them to be extra violent and bloodthirsty in combat.

 

 

THE RED THIRST

 

    Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment. Few battle-brothers can hold this Red Thirst in check unceasingly – it is far from unknown for Blood Angels to temporarily succumb to its lure at the height of battle.

 

    The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels’ darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it a humility and understanding of their own failings which make them truly the most noble of the Space Marines.

 

    The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

 

    There have been incidents when the Blood Angels have been stationed on distant worlds where members of the local population have gone missing only to turn up later drained of blood. It is possible that this is the work of cultists seeking to discredit the Chapter. It may even be that some of the more superstitious local citizens have taken to offering up sacrifices to their god-like visitors. It may also be possible that these folk have been killed by Blood Angels overcome by the Red Thirst.

 

    THE BLACK RAGE

 

    Blood Angels are unique amongst the Space Marines in that deeply engrained in their gene-seed is the encoded experience of their Primarch, and most deeply imprinted of all is the memory of Sanguinius’ final battle with Horus. Sometimes, on the eve of battle, an event or circumstance will trigger this ‘race memory’ and the battle-brother’s mind is suddenly wrenched into the distant past. The Black Rage overcomes the Blood Angel as the memories and consciousness of Sanguinius intrude upon his mind, and dire events ten thousand years old flood into the present.

 

    A warrior overcome with the Black Rage appears half mad with fury; he is unable to distinguish past from present and does not recognise his comrades. He may believe he is Sanguinius upon the eve of his destruction, and the bloody battles of the Horus Heresy are raging all around him. Such a battle-brother stands at the end of his travails, for his path leads only to the Death Company, where he and the Chapter’s other damned souls will fight one final battle in Sanguinius’ name.

[Firepower]

Ah, see, that's pointing out something that isn't normally visible in the descriptions I see around the forum.  People separate the anger, violence, and aggression of the Angels wholly into the Black Rage, while the Red Thirst is described as nothing but the urge to drink blood.  This creates an odd image where the Blood Angels seem to be perfectly normal people that just happen to want to drink blood, until one day a switch is flipped, and they're suddenly crazy.

 

The description you point to however sticks more with the 'original' fluff, where the Red Thirst isn't just a desire for blood, but also a source of their violent dispositions, which they have to struggle to restrain all their lives.  So that makes me happy :)