Astra militarum as a private military contractor?

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't care what you believe. Someone could create an army of Wall Street Headhunters with axes. That doesn't make Wall Street head hunters assassins. Anybody with real experience knows contractors aren't just security personnel. Take a look at the government jobs sites, you'll see more farmers and project managers than ambassador's security details.

[Gree]

I don't care what you believe. Someone could create an army of Wall Street Headhunters with axes. That doesn't make Wall Street head hunters assassins.

I was unaware you had been appointed the sole arbiter on that subject. My apologies. Obviously I should believe everybody people say on the internet.

[Marshal Rohr]

Is it your job to go around telling people what they can and cannot contribute to discussion now?

[Gree]

Is it your job to go around telling people what they can and cannot contribute to discussion now?

No, and I don't recall ever posting that.

 

What I do recall is trying to help out a fellow poster with his homebrew regiment when asked, and providing the sources when somebody asked about a PMC company. I had no idea somebody would get tied up in a knot just because a poster apparently wants to model their regiment after a PMC-style mercenary company.

[Marshal Rohr]

Like I said in my first post, nothing is wrong with the idea of mercenaries. Labeling them as contractors means more than just security. Just because you don't seem to comprehend that, doesn't mean it isn't a valid point.

[Gree]

Like I said in my first post, nothing is wrong with the idea of mercenaries. Labeling them as contractors means more than just security. Just because you don't seem to comprehend that, doesn't mean it isn't a valid point.

I comprehend it quite well, so it doesn't change my point at all. If you want to use that personal definition for yourself, then that's fine, but if you are trying to choke down creativity for a homebrew regiment, then the least I can do is step in and properly clarify things with the lore. If the OP wants to label them as contractors, then that's certainly his right as a hobbyist and player.

[Marshal Rohr]

No one is denying him that right. Providing feedback is what he wanted.

[Gree]

No one is denying him that right. Providing feedback is what he wanted.

You nitpicked the difference and asked for sources on a subject. Feedback can be responded to by other posters. I answered you on the sources and the other just seems to be your personal idea on what a contractor is, which should not change the OP's prerogative in any way.

[Marshal Rohr]

http://careers.caci.com/mobile/search?q=civilian%20contractor%20jobs%20bagram%20afghanistan&startrow=26

 

5 pages in and majority analyst and project jobs.

 

http://www.triplecanopy.com/careers/

 

Only 4 jobs for security personnel and that's just the catagories.

 

 

Two of the major PMCs and only a handful of jobs are security personnel. So unless you believe the companies themselves are lying, you have no idea what you're talking about. Enjoy your crow, Gree. I'm sure everyone is so grateful you took the time to say things with no basis in the real world.

[Gree]

Two of the major PMCs and only a handful of jobs are security personnel. So unless you believe the companies themselves are lying, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone can cherry pick random examples to support them. So yeah, that means little.

 

Not that it matters anyway. Military contractors certainly do exist and the OP can certainly call his force that if he wishes.

 

Enjoy your crow, Gree. I'm sure everyone is so grateful you took the time to say things with no basis in the real world.

Considering my contributions seem to be appreciated by others in this thread, I'd say people are quite grateful. You seem to be quite perturbed that I directly refuted you when you asked for sources earlier. It seems to be that this consternation seem to be just an extension of that.

[Marshal Rohr]

You didn't refute anything and those aren't cherry picked sources. Caci and TC are both major contractors. Halliburton is bigger and their jobs page is largely energy related. Face it, you don't have any clue what you're talking about. Your quote even said they were mercenaries. So quit while you're ahead. Nothing you provided refuted the fact most contractors are not security personnel.

 

 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf

 

Here's a white paper. Try and claim that's a cherry picked source. 18% security personnel. So again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Gree]

You didn't refute anything and those aren't cherry picked sources.

You asked for sources and I supplied them to you. You tried to choke down creativity and I refuted you.

 

Caci and TC are both major contractors. Halliburton is bigger and their jobs page is largely energy related.

You cherry picked a grand total of two companies out of the many that are in the world. So yeah, cherry picking.

 

Face it, you don't have any clue what you're talking about. Your quote even said they were mercenaries. So quit while you're ahead. Nothing you provided refuted the fact most contractors are not security personnel.

It seems to me that you are annoyed because I refuted your assertions earlier, and are just continuing on with that. Nothing you provided has refuted the fact that contractors can be mercenaries, nor does it mean that private military contractors cannot exist.

 

Here's a white paper. Try and claim that's a cherry picked source. 18% security personnel. So again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Yeah, I'd say it's a cherry-picked source. Not that it disproves my point anyway.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'll try to explain this simply.

 

Here is my original response.

I wouldn't use words like corporation. Corporation just means 'as a body' or 'in body', iirc. Private also wouldn't really fit very well because it implies a designation between economy and state, which I have yet to see a source address. Private Military Corporations is a very Western title on a very old profession. While a mercenary outfit aligned with a powerful faction is perfectly believable, labeling them as PMCs stretches the setting into territory it hasn't ever covered. I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all, just an unorthodox way of going about it.

 

 

Here is specifically said mercenaries are perfectly believable. PMCs however, as the white paper (which you probably didn't even look through) points out, 61% of PMCs in Afghanistan are base support. Cooks, electricians, etc. 18% provide security, and of that 18% only a fraction, if any at all, would be utilized to conduct combat missions. The whole purpose of PMCs is to use outside personnel to do jobs you don't want soldiers to do, freeing up manpower for other missions. So the OPs original idea of private mercenaries in the employ of the Mechanicus or Inquisition is perfectly plausible, as I said. What I was doubtful of [in Italics] is the need for large contracting corporations to provide logistical support, because the Munitorum has plenty of resources to provide for themselves. This is, of course, operating under the modern definition of PMCs as any private contractor who is employed by the military to perform some kind of job. Since most of the jobs contractors do in the real world are not combat operations, and when they are, it is security related it isn't the best title to call his army by. 

 

 

 

For twenty-five generations, Perdus Skylla has employed the Skyllan Interdiction, an outside mercenary agency funded by the wealthy mining guild conglomerates,''-pg. 24. Dark Disciple.

 

A mercenary agency is not a PMC. Its a mercenary agency. Its insulting to label everyone who works as a government contractor a mercenary. Many of them are just doing jobs that never require them to pick up a weapon. Again, your ignorance of the real world and insensitivity to real people who do these jobs, blanketing them all as mercenaries, probably isn't meant to be intentionally insulting because you probably have little to no experience with actual people who have been contractors, and you just want the chance to win an internet argument. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't trying to insult contractors.

 

 

They are mentioned in the word bearers trilogy in book 2...they are a pmc style company guarding a moon

 

I don't have that book, do you have the quotes?

 

 

 

Here all I wanted was the quote. Not some statement on whether or not I should step back and re-evaluate the background, as you suggested. I wanted to see if it made the distinction between mercenary and contractor, which it didn't. 

 

 

You didn't refute anything and those aren't cherry picked sources.

You asked for sources and I supplied them to you. You tried to choke down creativity and I refuted you.

 

I didn't try to choke down creativity at all. I was trying to help, but you insisted on trying to derail the topic to one-up me and prove I didn't know what I was talking about. Sadly, you've proved yourself wrong, as I've now provided 3 real world examples of what exactly contractors do, and you have yet to provide one source of PMCs engaging in direct action exclusively. I'll even help you out. Look up Shell's private army in Nigeria, thats an easy source, but I will warn you I'm going to be more familiar with it than you are (here is a hint, its still mostly energy and security, not special ops). There are also several examples of mercenary outfits out of the old Soviet states and in South America, but sadly the most obvious ones have ties to criminal organizations, so the distinction between mercenary and criminal is blurry. 

 

 

Caci and TC are both major contractors. Halliburton is bigger and their jobs page is largely energy related.

You cherry picked a grand total of two companies out of the many that are in the world. So yeah, cherry picking.

 

 

 

Face it, you don't have any clue what you're talking about. Your quote even said they were mercenaries. So quit while you're ahead. Nothing you provided refuted the fact most contractors are not security personnel.

It seems to be that you are annoyed because I refuted your assertions earlier, and are just continuing on with that. Nothing you provided has refuted the fact that contractors can be mercenaries, nor does it mean that private military contractors cannot exist.
 

Here's a white paper. Try and claim that's a cherry picked source. 18% security personnel. So again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Yeah, I'd say it's a cherry-picked source. Now that it disproves my point anyway.

 

You haven't made a point. If your point was that mercenaries exist in 40K, then we are in agreement. If your point was all contractors are mercenaries, you are wrong. I was originally trying to point out, subtly, it can be insulting to refer to contractors as mercenaries. 

 

You know what, it doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what you think. It only matter what Recon thinks. So have a good day, compadre.

 

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/05/colbert_mic_drop-52522.gif

[Gree]

Here is specifically said mercenaries are perfectly believable. PMCs however, as the white paper (which you probably didn't even look through) points out,

I did look at it actually. Not sure how it counters my point.

 

 

Cooks, electricians, etc. 18% provide security, and of that 18% only a fraction, if any at all, would be utilized to conduct combat missions. The whole purpose of PMCs is to use outside personnel to do jobs you don't want soldiers to do, freeing up manpower for other missions.

That's nice.

 

You still have yet to prove that contractors cannot be mercenaries however.

 

Again, your ignorance of the real world and insensitivity to real people who do these jobs, blanketing them all as mercenaries, probably isn't meant to be intentionally insulting because you probably have little to no experience with actual people who have been contractors, and you just want the chance to win an internet argument. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't trying to insult contractors.

Ah, there you go again, putting words into my mouth. I never blanketed them all as mercenaries or claimed that they were all to a man in a combat role.

 

I didn't try to choke down creativity at all. I was trying to help, but you insisted on trying to derail the topic to one-up me and prove I didn't know what I was talking about.

Quite wrong. The only person who is trying to dereail the topic is yourself, by needlessly trying to nitpick a difference. It was you who was trying to choke down creativity of a poster and their army.

 

I didn't try to choke down creativity at all. I was trying to help, but you insisted on trying to derail the topic to one-up me and prove I didn't know what I was talking about.

No, I was trying to support the OP and his right to make his army. You are the one who has chosen to drag this out.

 

Sadly, you've proved yourself wrong, as I've now provided 3 real world examples of what exactly contractors do, and you have yet to provide one source of PMCs engaging in direct action exclusively.

If you wish to provide a list of contractors I can certainly provide that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_military_contractors

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrivateMilitaryContractors

 

You haven't made a point. If your point was that mercenaries exist in 40K, then we are in agreement. If your point was all contractors are mercenaries, you are wrong. I was originally trying to point out, subtly, it can be insulting to refer to contractors as mercenaries.

I don't believe I have ever claimed that all contractors are mercenaries. That is putting words in my mouth. My point was that contractors doing mercenary work do exist and it would not be implausible for the OP to use that for his army.

 

Unless you are trying to say that contractors never ever engage in mercenary or security work?

[recon0321]

Ok guys a few things I am Iraq war veteran and I delt with both support and security contractors...PMC is umbrella term....mercenary is a bad term to use, they are simply referred to as Contractors...I didn't think this would cause such a issue...yes my idea is for contractors to do the dirty work they will obviously still be supported by the munitorium and ad mech but just recieve the best gear based on their contacts...within said organizations...

 

Call any security contractor a Merc and you won't like what they have to say...they are professionals...my brother was a contractor who was a aero jet mechanic....I wasn't trying to cause a issue...

[spafe]

Just wondering, I might be completly wrong here but is the idea that most PMC's that exist now who support western armies going to be that they are in a non combative role (in general, obvs there will be exceptions), but this is due to them having actual armies of soldiers for a combat role... wheras if you take private firms who protect (for instance) shipping lanes/ships in the indian sea from pirates... they are Private military contractors who perform military combative roles due to shipping companies/ships captains not having their own state army on board... is this a fair example of private combat roles in todays world?

 

Not that I'm saying 40k stuff is limited by todays world, as it would likely have whole other organisations etc that we couldnt dream off that are private and state owned...

 

Either way, as per civie usage of merc/PMC I see no real issue with using either term, as I think average joe on streets prob doesnt really know/care about difference (at least no-one I know would and I've worked for some of these companies in a PMC role now I think about it lol)

[SW1]

In the grim dark future even the cooks and cleaners need a gun TOTAL war in every sense.

 

Heretics and xenos don't differentiate between combatants and none combatants. Those not capable of serving get turned into servitors or just end up dead.

 

While the roots of ideas are a mishmash of real life sources the end product is something completely different. So using the idea of private military contractors from the year 2k and giving it a 40k twist you end up with mercenaries.

 

I'm not a mod but think this has got a little heated and is unfair on the OP who's just bouncing ideas around. This thread isn't to offend anyone so those with a chip on their shoulders hit the door and don't let it hit you on the way out and to others please don't get bated into more vitriol.

 

Let's get back on topic!!! :p

[WarriorFish]

I have hidden posts that went off topic and fell into argument. This behaviour is utterly unacceptable, I do not expect to have to do this as this is not how the B&C works - even less so here in the Guard forum. I do not want to have to do this again - please respect the B&C's rules, the topic and each other.

[CyderPirate]

Anyone know of a third party co for a rogue trader model or conversion ideas from the GW range

How about this guy from Anvil as your rogue trader? Looks more like menacing gangster-type than a rich nobel.

 

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/AFTERLIFE/Republic/Vargo

 

Or this guy from Mantic?

http://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/sci-fi-miniatures-games/warpath/corporation-major-general

[walter h]

I like the anvil,with the addition of a great coat either GS, or using the Scion, bits. The ,Mantic figure isn't bad though.

[recon0321]

Haha I emailed about the anvil guy they are rescuplting him

[CyderPirate]

Haha I emailed about the anvil guy they are rescuplting him

 

To give him a greatcoat?!