Is Dante that good?

[Duke Danse Macabre]

They are right, the BA gear all works well together and if you want you can have one hell of an expensive captain. :P

[Drunken Angel]

Its written as replace one weapon with one of the following. Thats one of each relic per army not one relic per army. Intent is very clear as written. If you have two weapons to start with you can replace both. No worries though play it as you want to play. We will agree to disagree on this

[Morollan]

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

[Drunken Angel]

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

Definition of Army in 7th?  You can  take a CAD and take an allied detachment from the same BA codex.  Then as many formations and faction specific detachments as you have points for but you are still only 1 army

So no your Gallians staff example does not hold up.  Only one of each relic may be taken per army

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

 

And when you look at your list and ask yourself "Has that Librarian replaced one weapon with one relic?" the answer is very clearly "No". He's replaced several weapons (assuming he had that many to replace) with several relics.

The rule does not say that this replacement can only be done once. The captain has replaced one weapon (his chainsword) with one relic (Valour's Edge). Then he has replaced one weapon (his bolt pistol) with one relic (Fury of Baal). The other relics do not replace anything and this the restriction does not apply. As long as the captain has one weapon he can replace it with one relic.

 

 

You're seriously going to try that? It says you may replace ONE weapon with ONE relic. You have replaced TWO weapons with TWO relics. Even if we assume that the relics that don't replace weapons are not limited to ONE relic (which I disagree with) you're still absolutely 100% breaking the rules by replacing more than one weapon with more than one relic.

 

Look at the wording for special issue wargear directly above the relics - "A model may take up to one of each of the following:" Why would they not use that wording if that is in fact what they mean?

 

 

I don't Know.

The way it reads is you can replace a single weapon for a single relic.

Nowhere does it say you can not replace 2 weapons as you are just trading a single weapon twice which in my eyes is just common sense.

 

In the Sisters of Battle Codex it reads "a force may only take a single relic" if it read as that or said that a model may only take a single relic i would agree but reading this as shown means ou can replace bother the pistol and sword with Wrath of Baal and Valours Edge.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

 

 

Each relic can only be taken once so no.

Its a named item and only one exists, nothing stops him from taking other items as well provided there is only 1 of each max in the force and the character can hold them all. For instance using the staff you could not also use valours edge and the plasma pistol.

[Morollan]

 

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

Definition of Army in 7th?  You can ally with yourself but you are still only 1 army so no your Gallians staff example does not hold up.  Only one of each relic may be taken per army

 

 

Okay, then let's take a non-relic example:

 

One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following:

- Heavy bolter…

º May also take hellfire shells…

- Missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)…

º May also take flakk missiles…

 

How many Heavy Bolters can I take in one Scout Squad? By the logic that yourself and Quixus are following, that substitution can be done for any Scout in the unit as it doesn't say that you can only do it once. Take one Scout. Replace his boltgun with a Heavy Bolter. Rinse and repeat.

[Quixus]

As a corollary, how many weapons of the same type do you allow on your characters? The rules are:"A model may replace its bolt pistol, boltgun and/or Melee/Ranged weapon with one of the following:

 

By your reading no one could have dual lightning claws or dual flamer/inferno/plasma pistols. You are exchanging the weapons for two of the following.

[bigted]

The way I read it you can take as many relics as you want in on a model so long as you only have one of each relic in your army and that's how I play it, but whatever, to each his own . Think about it this way Morollan, replacing multiple weapons per model with a relic is good for our army, and we should interpret the rules in a way that helps us the most . Also, who doesn't want to occasionally field a pimped out captain?!

[Morollan]

As a corollary, how many weapons of the same type do you allow on your characters? The rules are:"A model may replace its bolt pistol, boltgun and/or Melee/Ranged weapon with one of the following:

 

By your reading no one could have dual lightning claws or dual flamer/inferno/plasma pistols. You are exchanging the weapons for two of the following.

 

The and/or in that sentence allows for an expanded meaning to the rule as it's essentially a shortened version of:

 

A model may replace its bolt pistol with one of the following:

 

A model may replace its boltgun with one of the following:

 

A model may replace its Melee weapon with one of the following:

 

There is no and/or in the relic rule and therefore no expanded meaning. It allows the model to replace one weapon with one of the relics but no more.

[Drunken Angel]

 

 

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

Definition of Army in 7th?  You can ally with yourself but you are still only 1 army so no your Gallians staff example does not hold up.  Only one of each relic may be taken per army

 

 

Okay, then let's take a non-relic example:

 

One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following:

- Heavy bolter…

º May also take hellfire shells…

- Missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)…

º May also take flakk missiles…

 

How many Heavy Bolters can I take in one Scout Squad? By the logic that yourself and Quixus are following, that substitution can be done for any Scout in the unit as it doesn't say that you can only do it once. Take one Scout. Replace his boltgun with a Heavy Bolter. Rinse and repeat.

 

Lets not .... the above example is not even close as a basis to define how relics are treated.  Bolters are one for one per model per squad.

 

Relics are one of each per army.

 

Thats the point of difference we have, the written description in the entry for relics allows more than one to be taken for the same model.  The scout entry clearly excludes that possibility its replace bolter for X.  

 

Relics are exchanged as relic for weapon. Two weapons = two relics, just not the same relic twice in an army.

[Morollan]

 

 

 

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

Definition of Army in 7th?  You can ally with yourself but you are still only 1 army so no your Gallians staff example does not hold up.  Only one of each relic may be taken per army

 

 

Okay, then let's take a non-relic example:

 

One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following:

- Heavy bolter…

º May also take hellfire shells…

- Missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)…

º May also take flakk missiles…

 

How many Heavy Bolters can I take in one Scout Squad? By the logic that yourself and Quixus are following, that substitution can be done for any Scout in the unit as it doesn't say that you can only do it once. Take one Scout. Replace his boltgun with a Heavy Bolter. Rinse and repeat.

 

Lets not .... the above example is not even close as a basis of separation  

 

The point of difference we have is that the written description in the entry for relics allows more than one to be taken for the same model  

 

 

That's entirely the point though. The Relics of Baal list does NOT allow more than one for the same model unless you follow the logic that you can carry out the same replacement process more than once unless the rules tell you not to. Which is exactly what the Scout example is doing. You can't have it both ways!

 

PS - This should probably be taken to the OR forum as we're clogging up the OPs thread with our waffle. Sorry!

[Drunken Angel]

No worries M you are probably right on that ! Back to Dante.

[bigted]

I think Dante's one of the best options in our codex. He's an ok tank, an awesome beatstick, great in challenges, weakens nearby enemies and to top it all off he provides some awesome utility with his guaranteed warlord trait. Best of all, he doesn't even take up an HQ slot. Stick him with a libby for quickening and a squad of SG, DC or even VV and enjoy the ensuing slaughter .

[Frater Cornelius]

I think Dante's one of the best options in our codex. He's an ok tank, an awesome beatstick, great in challenges, weakens nearby enemies and to top it all off he provides some awesome utility with his guaranteed warlord trait. Best of all, he doesn't even take up an HQ slot. Stick him with a libby for quickening and a squad of SG, DC or even VV and enjoy the ensuing slaughter .

If he could ride a Thunderwolf, he would be perfect :D

[bigted]

I think Dante's one of the best options in our codex. He's an ok tank, an awesome beatstick, great in challenges, weakens nearby enemies and to top it all off he provides some awesome utility with his guaranteed warlord trait. Best of all, he doesn't even take up an HQ slot. Stick him with a libby for quickening and a squad of SG, DC or even VV and enjoy the ensuing slaughter .

If he could ride a Thunderwolf, he would be perfect

haha, that would be amazing! And he could keep his jump pack as well! Or even better, the thunderwolf could have a really big jump pack so they can deep strike together ! Although the space wolves would get jealous because Logan is so inferior... I mean come on, someone needs to give the Great Wolf some nipples!

[Frater Cornelius]

Who needs Logan. My custom Thunderlord has Fellclaw's Nipples. They allow him to re-roll all failed to-hit rolls in CC. He wipes the floor with 10man Paladin Squads and laughs at the close combat mediocrity of Abaddon.

[bigted]

Who needs Logan. My custom Thunderlord has Fellclaw's Nipples. They allow him to re-roll all failed to-hit rolls in CC. He wipes the floor with 10man Paladin Squads and laughs at the close combat mediocrity of Abaddon.

He's obviously a Blood Angel in disguise, no other Space Marines are allowed to brazenly display nipples. Perhaps he was sent to steal a thunderwolf for Dante? That would make perfect sense.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Do we really need wolf nipples?...

I can't imagine them standing still whilst we bronze them. ;)

 

Back to Dante however, I am still debating the best choice of unit for him to fly in with.

Yes Guard look best and compliment him best but I am trying to think outside the box on deep Striking. :P

[Frater Cornelius]

Do we really need wolf nipples?...

I can't imagine them standing still whilst we bronze them.

Back to Dante however, I am still debating the best choice of unit for him to fly in with.

Yes Guard look best and compliment him best but I am trying to think outside the box on deep Striking.

In that case you are looking at the Command Squad. Give them 3 Meltas and attach Dante. You have almost guaranteed arrival and positioning, a tanky body, free FnP and good dakka on arrival.

[Karhedron]

DC benefit greatly from Dante's hit and run since they gain so many charge bonuses.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Quixus - Presumably by the same logic, where is says "One Librarian in your army may replace his force weapon with Gallian’s Staff" I can in fact do that for all Librarians in my army as each of them is "One Librarian in my army"?

Definition of Army in 7th? You can ally with yourself but you are still only 1 army so no your Gallians staff example does not hold up. Only one of each relic may be taken per army

Okay, then let's take a non-relic example:

 

One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following:

- Heavy bolter…

º May also take hellfire shells…

- Missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)…

º May also take flakk missiles…

 

How many Heavy Bolters can I take in one Scout Squad? By the logic that yourself and Quixus are following, that substitution can be done for any Scout in the unit as it doesn't say that you can only do it once. Take one Scout. Replace his boltgun with a Heavy Bolter. Rinse and repeat.

Lets not .... the above example is not even close as a basis of separation

 

The point of difference we have is that the written description in the entry for relics allows more than one to be taken for the same model

That's entirely the point though. The Relics of Baal list does NOT allow more than one for the same model unless you follow the logic that you can carry out the same replacement process more than once unless the rules tell you not to. Which is exactly what the Scout example is doing. You can't have it both ways!

 

PS - This should probably be taken to the OR forum as we're clogging up the OPs thread with our waffle. Sorry!

You are 100% wrong. A model can have the relic sword, pistol and jump pack for example.

 

2 of the relics replace weapons, 1 is an additional war gear.

 

One relic for one weapon, not a single relic per model or army.

 

Same as vanilla marine captain with burning blade, Shield Eternal and armour indomnitus for example.

[Raktra]

That movie "Ginger Snaps" had werewolf nipples and it killed a large part of my mind that bred happiness. Please no.

 

Again, back to Daddy D, is there really anyone better than him in LoW, or even equal? Yeah Draigo's a smidge tougher and is a psyker, but that means his tricks are counterable.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

DC benefit greatly from Dante's hit and run since they gain so many charge bonuses.

 

I think you may have a good point there, just whats putting me off is the lack of rerolls these days without Astorath, that however makes for a VERY expensive unti.

[Raktra]

Eh, they survived without them in the past, they can keep going now.