Ideas for the Librarius Conclave Formation

[Prot]

Specific to this formation I wanted to get conversation going.

 

It's not a great formation but infintely more usable than the 'Unrelenting Hunt'.

 

Before getting into strat, please read it. It's not as straightforward as it seems:

 

- the key is 12" for certain bonuses to happen, However, the formation seems to be in effect as long as you have 2 Librarians alive.

 

- IE: "focusing" the Worm is doable with only one other Libby alive (in the appropriate range).

 

- The ability to share Prescience is nice, but really I think the less obvious ability to have 3 libbys with 7 potential charges is nice for offence AND defence.

 

 

 

Right now I'm going with pods to present a "Surgical Precision" feel to the formation. I'm taking my Az-zeke bomb list and using the pod advantage to be very aggressive in one quarter of the table.

 

- Use the pods (with Maelstrom) to dominate an area, and focus fire key characters/weapon holders/bonus givers with Mind Worm(s). IE: Pain Boss on a Bike, HQ, special weapon guy, etc.

 

- While the psychic abilities could combine for getting rid of characters/special units, conversely 'sharing' Prescience could allow a a reign of Bolters to riddle the masses.

 

- Combine EITHER of the above with Black Knights Grenade Launcher to make wounding easier.

 

- This Combination MIGHT make Greenwing more attractive. (think having your own super bolter chapter trait... on 2 squads, any squads, a turn.)

 

- Biker Libbies could be incredible, moving and Mind Worming key players on the opponent's team. Where Prescience isn't as prevelaint on the Ravenwing, you wouldn't need it as Mind War would be the key to chopping the 'head' off your opponent's army.

 

- Downside? As far as I know, everyone can still Look Out Sir the power.

 

- Bonus? I'm thinking of multi-Mind Worm vs flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

Here is my first list using the tactics outlined above for a test:

Prot's Az-zeke Bomb Librarius Conclave 1850 pt list

[notmattlythgoe]

I'm thinking about sticking Zeke in my LRC with my command squad, then put the 2 libbies on bikes in my 2 bike squads with PFGs.

 

I'll then generate powers for each psycher from different trees to maximize the number of powers I can cast.

 

I think the most powerful part of this formation is the casting of powers on a 3+ and the ability to get 8-10 powers to split between the 3 psychers.

 

 

HQ

Azrael Command Squad

Apothecary, 5x Boltgun, 5x Veterans, Banner of Devastation

 

Troops

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 2x Meltagun, 6x Ravenwing Biker

Ravenwing Attack Bike - Multi-Melta

Ravenwing Land Speeder- Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Ravenwing Sergeant - Combi-Melta  

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 2x Meltagun, 6x Ravenwing Biker

Ravenwing Attack Bike - Multi-Melta

Ravenwing Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Ravenwing Sergeant -  Combi-Melta  

 

Fast Attack

Ravenwing Black Knights - 6x Black Knight, 2x Ravenwing Grenade Launcher

 

Ravenwing Darkshroud - Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader - Dozer blade

 

Formation Librarius Conclave (Formation)

Ezekiel

Librarian - Power Field Generator, Power Field Generator

Librarian - Power Field Generator, Power Field Generator                    

[Syphid]

Can Ezekiel still be the army Warlord if he is part of the formation?

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

- Bonus? I'm thinking of multi-Mind Worm vs flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

 

Remember, once you nominate one of the libbies to get a power the other libbies within 12" can't manifest any powers.

[Prot]

 

I'm thinking about sticking Zeke in my LRC with my command squad, then put the 2 libbies on bikes in my 2 bike squads with PFGs.

 

I'll then generate powers for each psycher from different trees to maximize the number of powers I can cast.

 

I think the most powerful part of this formation is the casting of powers on a 3+ and the ability to get 8-10 powers to split between the 3 psychers.

 

 

/snip

 

- How big is this list? (pointswise?)

 

Can Ezekiel still be the army Warlord if he is part of the formation?

 

- Azrael has a far better warlord trait (any of them!) so I always use his.

 

 

 

- Bonus? I'm thinking of multi-Mind Worm vs flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

 

Remember, once you nominate one of the libbies to get a power the other libbies within 12" can't manifest any powers.

 

 

- I don't read it that way. They just have to wait until the end of the phase.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

I'm thinking about sticking Zeke in my LRC with my command squad, then put the 2 libbies on bikes in my 2 bike squads with PFGs.

 

I'll then generate powers for each psycher from different trees to maximize the number of powers I can cast.

 

I think the most powerful part of this formation is the casting of powers on a 3+ and the ability to get 8-10 powers to split between the 3 psychers.

 

 

/snip

 

- How big is this list? (pointswise?)

 

Can Ezekiel still be the army Warlord if he is part of the formation?

 

- Azrael has a far better warlord trait (any of them!) so I always use his.

 

 

 

- Bonus? I'm thinking of multi-Mind Worm vs flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

 

Remember, once you nominate one of the libbies to get a power the other libbies within 12" can't manifest any powers.

 

 

- I don't read it that way. They just have to wait until the end of the phase.

 

That's a 2k list.

 

I read it that once the phase ends they are allowed to cast powers, then only allowing them to cast them at the start of the next phase.

[Loar]

Yeah the rule as written says other models from this Formation within 12" of the nominated model cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase.  Not sure how a psyker is supposed to manifest psychic powers outside of the psychic phase now, pretty sure they can't. 

 

So this reads to me that they can't do it until the next turn.  As usual for GW they wrote it in a horribly confusing manner.

[Prot]

End of the phase is different to me than after the phase.

 

I mean why word it like that at all then? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. You'd simply word it: No other psykers can cast powers.

 

I understood it to mean that the psykers supporting the dude getting the special abilities are concentrating on helping him out, and then they can do their own thing. Therefore you can't see the results of doing your 'ordinary' psychic stuff and THEN use your buffed psyker. I merely saw it as a mechanic to prevent that.

 

Otherwise if what you're saying is true, I am not sure why I'd take this formation at all.

[Loar]

One cool idea I also had was to run zek plus libbies in a LRC/R with deathwing knights.  This would be accompanied by a single libby on a bike + PFG in a RW command squad running either behind or alongside the LRC.  This way the whole squad and LRC have the ++4 and the single libby on the bike can still use all the powers from the libbies and zek inside the LRC, essentially letting you shoot all the witchfires/mal/blessings from inside a vehicle using the bike libby as a proxy.  Its really expensive point wise but sounds like a fun way to run the formation.  Any thoughts?

[notmattlythgoe]

End of the phase is different to me than after the phase.

 

I mean why word it like that at all then? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. You'd simply word it: No other psykers can cast powers.

 

I understood it to mean that the psykers supporting the dude getting the special abilities are concentrating on helping him out, and then they can do their own thing. Therefore you can't see the results of doing your 'ordinary' psychic stuff and THEN use your buffed psyker. I merely saw it as a mechanic to prevent that.

 

Otherwise if what you're saying is true, I am not sure why I'd take this formation at all.

 

Your reasoning does make sense Prot. GW again gives us a very nondescript rule...

[Prot]

Yea their wording often leads to discussions like this. All I know is the more I explore it, the less likely I am to use it.

[aura_enchanted]

i think the best way to employ the formation is joining them to interesting offensive units. heres an example of what im on about at 1750pts:

 

HQ (you have 150 points to spend the must be in tda)

 

dwcs, HF, champion, thunderhammers and shields (250) dedicated land raider reedmer (275)

 

troops:

 

1x5 tactical marines, melta, combi melta, drop pod (125)

 

1x5 tacticals, melta, combi melta, drop pod (125)

 

elite:

 

2x5 dwt's assault cannons and chainfists(lcs optional, could cwap the chainfist for a single th/ss) (245x2)

 

formation (335):

 

ezekiel

 

2 librarians, TDA 

 

the terminator squads are joined by ezekiel and the two terminator librarians (ezekiel being with the dwcs) with ws6 those thundernators will make paste of whatever they touch and this way when the two librarians arrive they will maintain coherency with ezekiel relatively easily. however one should not be treating the coherency as important. its a panic button so you can grab a spell from someone else and hurl it out in a direction you need it to go. useful ideas would be for ezekiel to take telekinesis on ezekiel and double pyromancers.

 

another strategy would be to run double biker librarians in compliment of a ravenwing force with ezekiel podding in with veterans armed with maybe something nice and tasteful

[eurieus]

Does Ezekiel take a HQ slot if used in this formation ? I'ver never used formations before. 

[notmattlythgoe]

Does Ezekiel take a HQ slot if used in this formation ? I'ver never used formations before. 

 

No.

[Syphid]

 

Can Ezekiel still be the army Warlord if he is part of the formation?

 

- Azrael has a far better warlord trait (any of them!) so I always use his.

 

 

Ok, but I want to know if Ezekiel in the formation can still count as the HQ in a Combined Arms detachment, or if I have to add another HQ in addition to get Objective Secured?

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

Can Ezekiel still be the army Warlord if he is part of the formation?

 

- Azrael has a far better warlord trait (any of them!) so I always use his.

 

 

Ok, but I want to know if Ezekiel in the formation can still count as the HQ in a Combined Arms detachment, or if I have to add another HQ in addition to get Objective Secured?

 

You will have to add another HQ.

[Isiah]

@Syphid: No he can't, as each unit can only ever be in one detachment. He can't be part of the Conclave formation (which is a special detachment) and be an HQ in the separate combined arms detachment.

 

And because of that I have issues with attaching Libbies from the Conclave to units not in it whilst still using its psychic buffs.

 

Cheers

I

[Bryan Blaire]

A Formation is a special type of Detachment per the 7th Ed rule book. Also per the 7th Ed rule book, no unit (HQs are still a unit even if yet are a single person) may be part of more than one Detachment.

[Loar]

Yeah they are right.  You can still choose which HQ would be your warlord, but whatever warlord trait you rolled or have would only apply to the formation/detachment that warlord is in.  So couldn't roll like master of ambush on your CAD HQ and then use that to infiltrate zekiel and his buddies :P

 

Pretty sure thats how its been explained to me multiple times

[Syphid]

Ah ok, thanks all!  I had the idea of adding a barebones company master with Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven with Ezekiel for witch denying...

[Loar]

Ah ok, thanks all!  I had the idea of adding a barebones company master with Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven with Ezekiel for witch denying...

 

Yeah no reason you couldn't do that.  I was thinking of some of the crazy deathstar capabilities you could create with this.  One example would be a unit of deathwing knights with perfidius relic upgrade with zek + libbies in a land raider varient.  This unit with a physic hood and adamantium will with a psyker lvl 3 means most the time you are going to get a deny the witch role of +3 or better (if the offensive spell is from a psycher lvl 2 or lower). 

 

This deathstar could be escorted by another libby from the detachment on a bike with a pfg and a RW command squad or RW attack squad for protection.  Whole unit and the land raider get a ++4 invulernable and can move up the board quick to where you need them.  The biker is within 12 of zek and the others even though they are embarked, so can shoot all the mindworm/withfire/blessing/maledictions that the squad inside the land raider have until you get them out and into combat with the biggest threat on the board (cheeky way of essentially being able to shoot all psychic powers of a squad from inside a transport).  Sure its expensive points wise, but this formation is gonna have that problem either way, and if you are already running a list that uses any of those units this is an easy way to fit this formation into it in a relatively effective manner.

 

It could also horribly blow up in your face.

[Cactus]

Regarding the wording of Empyric Connection, isn't the "until the end of the phase" clause identical to other effects that last for one shooting phase or one assault phase? I can't think of any examples but I'm sure I've read that phrase before. Anyway, I read it as "can't use psychic powers in this phase" which seems like a fair drawback for what is basically a free ability.

[Prot]

I don't know... I have to disagree. I think that *IF* it means you can't use your other psykers this formation is yet another DA Dud.

 

I don't know how up you are on your dataslates but basically they all come 'free' now. The cost is in the models usually. It's just how all the new ones work.

 

If I have 3 pskyers on the table, but only one can use any psychic abilities....? That's just.... horrible. You're better off with just using 3 psychers by allying with your self! At least then you could use abilities all over the table, and MULTIPLES of the same ability which is a HUGE penalty for only using one psyker per phase.

 

The other built in penalty is the range. To make this work, one of two things has to happen... you're either grouping the psykers together in a real honey pot for your opponent, or you're forced to make sure at least one of the psychers never leaves 12" of the main psyker you want to buff.

 

If I have Ezekeil on the table, and a foot away I have another psyker with... let's say Devastartors. Effectively, according to this formation, I  now have two psykers that know the Prescience ability. However only one squad can receive it. I'd rather just have normal psykers in that case. The ability to have one psyker pass tests at 3+ isn't enough.

 

If this is indeed how it works, then the only 'big' reason I can convince myself to take it is for Mega Mind Worm. The problem with Mind Worm is there are far too many rolls involved to make it have any real impact:

1: Pass your test.

2: Pass your test with more than you need so it actually becomes 'Focused' onto a specific model. (Let's face it, this is key, without this it's almost useless)

3: Ballistic skill time... roll to hit.

4: Let's assume everything above went okay... now you gotta hope he doesn't pass (potentially on a 2+) his Look out Sir! 

 

That's just... too crazy. When I first came to DA I was all over Ezekeil and Mind Worm but after trying to apply the ability in 7th according to the proper rules, I realized how hard it is to actually make it happen properly. No one cares if you strip a wound off of a shoota boy.

[Solrac]

I don't know... I have to disagree. I think that *IF* it means you can't use your other psykers this formation is yet another DA Dud.

 

I don't know how up you are on your dataslates but basically they all come 'free' now. The cost is in the models usually. It's just how all the new ones work.

 

If I have 3 pskyers on the table, but only one can use any psychic abilities....? That's just.... horrible. You're better off with just using 3 psychers by allying with your self! At least then you could use abilities all over the table, and MULTIPLES of the same ability which is a HUGE penalty for only using one psyker per phase.

 

The other built in penalty is the range. To make this work, one of two things has to happen... you're either grouping the psykers together in a real honey pot for your opponent, or you're forced to make sure at least one of the psychers never leaves 12" of the main psyker you want to buff.

 

If I have Ezekeil on the table, and a foot away I have another psyker with... let's say Devastartors. Effectively, according to this formation, I  now have two psykers that know the Prescience ability. However only one squad can receive it. I'd rather just have normal psykers in that case. The ability to have one psyker pass tests at 3+ isn't enough.

 

If this is indeed how it works, then the only 'big' reason I can convince myself to take it is for Mega Mind Worm. The problem with Mind Worm is there are far too many rolls involved to make it have any real impact:

1: Pass your test.

2: Pass your test with more than you need so it actually becomes 'Focused' onto a specific model. (Let's face it, this is key, without this it's almost useless)

3: Ballistic skill time... roll to hit.

4: Let's assume everything above went okay... now you gotta hope he doesn't pass (potentially on a 2+) his Look out Sir! 

 

That's just... too crazy. When I first came to DA I was all over Ezekeil and Mind Worm but after trying to apply the ability in 7th according to the proper rules, I realized how hard it is to actually make it happen properly. No one cares if you strip a wound off of a shoota boy.

 

(Edit: Just realised Loar already mentioned this, sorry bud didn't read all the posts before posting).

 

I think the idea is you can make a "Council" type situation and have multiple Psykers roll on different tables. Any that you dont want to use in the council you just keep them further away. Either that or you could roll them all on the one table to guarantee chances at something like Invisibility?

 

How it reads to me is that the nominated Psyker in your "council" has to do his psychic powers first then any other psyker outside 12" (or psykers not in the formation) will then cast "at the end of the phase".

 

How I would think of using this formation is sticking Zeke and and at least 2 Librarian in a unit of Deathwing Knights. Zeke rolls on Divination, the other 2 get Telepathy. Point it at their toughest squad and mash it to bits. Sure they'll need an LRC and yes it's expensive but as we all know Deathstarr can pay off. Let's look at it.

 

You have the Knights and the 2 Libbys at WS 6 thanks to Zeke, all have T5 thanks to wall of shields. You have a huge chance to get off all the Psychic powers you need as a 3+ is required so good chance at getting Prescience off. You have 4 Characters in the unit to distract any enemy characters. If your lucky with the buffed mind worm you can also reduce the leadership of the unit to pull off a tasty Psychic Scream before you charge in and wreck the unit or a nearby support unit. You got the Knights to tank AP2 hits and shots so you don't need a PFG.

 

Also it doesn't have to be Zeke! Imagine 4 Librarians in Termie Armour Deep Striking in with 10 Knights and roll on every tree you can for a variety of powers. Zeke can hang with a dev squad or something.

 

I just bought the dataslate and will def be trying this out.

[NCSUWolf]

Just weighing in on the reading of the special rules: the Fluff blurb describes the members of the Conclave focusing their power through one member to be more devastating. To me this reads you select one to be the focal point, the rest lending their knowledge (i.e. the powers they know) in exchange for individually casting.

 

The price is reasonable if utilized properly... with the versatility of the formation.

 

This is huge to me since, at full strength, that means the 5 librarians, if all in range of the focal point, have access to 18 powers!!! With a base 11+d6 warp charges to utilize. That's Fate weaver level... add to it the fact that you can bring up to 5!! Librarians without additional taxes... that's 5 ICs with Fearless, Pref Enemy (CSM), 2 wounds, relics, force weapons.

 

AND 3+ for warp successes... AND double range for Mind Worm.

 

 

 

I'm thinking something similar to what's been toyed with already: Zeke+Knights+HQ (maybe another regular Lib) in an LA as a hammer with Conclave libbies on bikes kitted with various upgrades and support units (Conversion Fields, PFG, Shroud of Heroes, Black Knights, etc)

 

OR in an alpha strike style with Zeke in a Drop Pod with assault marines or vets, a bunch of DW squads attached with TDA libbies from the conclave.

 

 

needless to say, I'm stoked about this formation as Ezekiel is easily one of my favorite units and thus gives me a solid Avenue to play him without feeling like he's under supported.

 

Lastly... and this'll earn me a trip to chamber 34.... but remember we have access to Malefic powers... ya know... to do the Emperors bidding fighting fire with fire and all that... just saying