Ideas for the Librarius Conclave Formation

[Maxamato]

After reading the Formation, following idea is coming up into my mind:

2 Libby in the HQ and this Formation inclusive Zekke and 3 or 4 Libbys. All Libbies get LvL 2 upgrade and roll on the Telepahty table (for psychic scream). This should be approximately 650pts. The rest of the list  will be DropPods Tactcials and to each squad one Libby will be attached.

[aura_enchanted]

My conclave idea is to use the secondary librarians as support units for ezekiel and by using them as ic's for squads with less than stellar independent characters.

 

So my plan is this:

 

Ezekiel (telepathy) (attached to dwcs/dwk's in raider)

 

Librarian, lvl 1 (divination)

Librarian, tda, lvl 2 (pyro (or demonology))

 

Ezekiel rides with some suicide drop veterans and tda Libby rides with some terminators in a ds support loadout. They drop in support of a band of knights or Another offensive spearhead unit, and the lvl 2 demon magic man is a way of calling up even more support. The idea is for what would normally only be a mid sized gun magnet into a colossal sized magnet with lots of ic's to toss into challenges, lots of very dangerous magic, and lots of additional bodies and weapons in a small vicinity forcing the enemy to react, and just for kicks in a 2500 point game I'd toss in an imperial knight for added giggles. I actually have a list im forging right that works around these principals that I think will do well especially against armies that have low character count and poor duelist hq's (such as guardsmen or many standard marines

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The only thing I think it is wrong is Ezekiel ridding with a suicide squad. That means that he will last a turn or two at most. IMHO if one is spending such a big chunk on librarians, might as well ensure they stick around as long as possible.

[aura_enchanted]

The only thing I think it is wrong is Ezekiel ridding with a suicide squad. That means that he will last a turn or two at most. IMHO if one is spending such a big chunk on librarians, might as well ensure they stick around as long as possible.

it's simply a name and tbh they probably will live quite long if the world turns my way, in a perfect world the enemy gets tangled in my mean melee spearhead and so I can just plop the veterans and dwt's right next to them. Given the choice of killing power armor or tda the enemy picks tda every time. Ezekiel I argue is in the safest place possible in that setting.

[Master Avoghai]

I have a mega battle (10000 pts of my DA vs 4x 2500 of chaos -each god) and I plan to use this formation (helps a lot to include moar librarians to counter possible deamon bom.

 

And I was wndering : let's say I have a librarian on a bike within 12" of a LR containing ezekiel... Can he cast any ezekiel's power and harass a charge on 3+ ?

[Loar]

RAW that should be fine, its the way I would run this formation too.  Any distances for embarked units are measured from the hull so you should be good to go.

[Space Truckin]

Has anyone tried this formation in a game yet?

 

 

I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread so i bumped this old one.

[IanSturrock]

I tried it out in a friendly game against my son's Orks a couple of weeks ago. I just used the minimalist version -- Zeke and two PA libbies, Lvl 1 -- as it was only a 1500 pt game. I made sure I had points for a third libby as a warlord though, Lvl 1 again, bike. All three libbies who could, got power field generators. Rest of the army was a DWK unit, a ten-man tac squad half in a pod (so as to get the three footslogging librarians upfield -- Zeke only stayed with the tac squad for a turn, though, as I wanted to join him to the DWKs as soon as I could) and half on an objective, a ten-man tac squad with a rhino (combat squadded so again, half were sitting on an objective and taking lascannon potshots), a Whirlwind, and a Ravenwing Command Squad. I was up against a Green Tide formation, a couple of trukks full of boyz, a battlewagon with three meganobz, some big gunz and a couple of deff dreads. The librarians did OK -- I was generating a lot of warp charges, and grabbed all four of the disciplines we can take, so I could always cast several powers at the big Green Tide group (who were nearest to me. Mostly they formed a distraction, though, in the end. As usual I underestimated Ork speed and lost most of them over the first few turns, but was able to eke out a 7-7 draw by carefully grabbing objectives (we were playing Maelstrom of War).

 

I think it's an interesting and potentially powerful formation that uses some of our best units, but I haven't quite figured out the optimal use for it yet, if there is one. It's versatile but also requires more finesse than I gave it, which makes me think I need a lot more practice with it. It was very reliable for casting a good array of powers though.

[Prot]

Unfortunately there isn't another in depth thread about the Librarius Conclave that has evolved since this one, so I am revisiting it....

 

I re-read this thread every now and then and find it to be inviting to try but very difficult to perceive as functional. According to the thread, many of us were going to try it, but only one person ever did? Has anyone else tried it?

 

Assuming that the 'chosen' psyker is the only one capable of casting, this to me is such an immense handicap. Plus since this is just a formation it really still needs an additional HQ in another CAD or detachment to make it functional. So I'm assuming this is going to be really awkward under... 1850~?

 

I was re-visiting this as a potential goal for ETL but again, the more I read it, the less plausible I find it. Has anyone figured it out on the table top yet?

[Solrac]

Unfortunately there isn't another in depth thread about the Librarius Conclave that has evolved since this one, so I am revisiting it....

 

I re-read this thread every now and then and find it to be inviting to try but very difficult to perceive as functional. According to the thread, many of us were going to try it, but only one person ever did? Has anyone else tried it?

 

Assuming that the 'chosen' psyker is the only one capable of casting, this to me is such an immense handicap. Plus since this is just a formation it really still needs an additional HQ in another CAD or detachment to make it functional. So I'm assuming this is going to be really awkward under... 1850~?

 

I was re-visiting this as a potential goal for ETL but again, the more I read it, the less plausible I find it. Has anyone figured it out on the table top yet?

 

I'm going to playtest it in a modified Azrael/Zeke bomb in the next few weeks. Same concept as you had Prot just Azrael, Zeke and 3 other Libbys in a drop pod with a Command Squad with 5 Plasmas. The 3 Libbys have Combi-Plasmas also. Zeke rolls on Divination as the re-rolls for the Plasmas is a must . The other 3 libbys roll on Sanctic to try and get Sanctuary to make their Inv a 3++ (Gate of Infinity would also be a bonus). I'll be using the conclave rules and have a standard libby do all the casting in case of perils. Drop them on a central objective or behind enemy lines to cause max plasma damage.

 

Supporting them would be some long range fire support, another 2 podded Tac squads and whatever else I can fit in. It's expensive but should have the staying power with a 3++, FNP and a plethora of wounds.

[Isiah]

I don't doubt it'll be a hoot. But my guess is it runs expensive and cuts down model count.

 

The Conclave is a real puzzler. It's like someone had half an idead but couldn't properly develop it. I'm sure it's awesome in certain situations. But are those too few to warrant its general inclusion?

 

Cheers

I

[Dread_Hospitaller]

So, I had this nice long treatise written up on my 30+ games using the conclave on the tabletop, a real doozy of a first post, then the vicious internet gods ate it. I will not have this knowledge stifled!

 

So, key points about using the conclave, and again I've been using it in about every game I've played with my DA since December.

 

1) Yes, 1850 is the smallest point level you want to use it at, and unless the game is over 2000 pts, you only either make the 2 generic libbys level 2 psykers or take a third and have all at level 1. Anything more than that and you're getting some serious diminishing returns on your point investment.

 

2) Against non psyker armies, you rule the psychic phase, and it is a HUGE advantage in capabilities and firepower. Against psyker heavy armies, even with less dice, you can stay on par. Each psychic dice you throw is more likely to succeed when you go voltron mode (as I call it), making denials harder and letting you cast more spells to run your opponent out of denial dice. Furthermore, offensive powers are shut down hilariously easily with the amount of psychic hoods floating around.

 

3) Versatility. You don't just get access to greenwing librarians. There's ravenwing and deathwing librarians too. This formation can be slid in easily to enhance any DA army, and possibly any imperium army. It is designed to be a force multiplier, not an army unto itself.

 

4) Many successful DA armies use our banners, which require that the army be bunched up anyways. In practice, keeping the librarians in 12" of each other is just not hard at all.

 

Core setups I've played with:

 

1) Deathwing. Core of it is 2 terminator librarians, possibly with a third bike librarian if you have the room. Banner of Fortitude, stick Ezekiel in a drop pod with some stormshield company vets or a demitac squad if you're shaving points and bring him down with the terminators in a massive turn 1 deepstrike, zero reserve rolls required, with the ravenwing squad (a bike libby with invisibility virtually guarantees it surviving if you go second) ensuring nothing is lost to a bad scatter. That's right, bring down an entire phalanx of FNP terminators and librarians wherever you want on the table, throw the psychic dice you need on psychic shrieks, mind worms, and buff spells, and watch an entire flank crumble. You don't even need to spend dice on prescience, as everything's already twin linked that turn, instead spend your castings on ignores cover and psychic maelstroms and such! Chuck one of your librarians in a deathwing knight unit with a perfidious relic, and laugh as no offensive spells can touch you.

 

2) Ravenwing. As all the weapons are twin linked anyways, you again can focus your power choices on fun stuff like telepathy; I've killed entire centurion squads with terrify/psychic shriek. You get a bit more teeth in melee, the psychic phase is mostly unaffected by jinking so you maintain a lot of firepower. Ezekiel's even harder to squeeze in here, but in an aegis defense line with a quad gun, bonus points if he gets the ignores cover power, and enemy flyers (the bane of ravenwing) are effectively dealt with or at least compensated for.

 

3) Cosplaying as thousand sons. You have 3 extra librarians on top of what you take in the HQ. Its not the most effective thing ever, but if you ever wondered how a loyalist thousand sons army might look in 40k, this is it. Spread them around in key units, pick their rolls, and have fun. A personal favorite is a pyromancy psyker with a chaplain in an assault squad. Expensive, and the assault squad is mostly ablative wounds, but good christ does it kill squishy stuff like ork boyz and tau gunlines hilariously well.

[Prot]

This is an epic first post. Grats to you for trying it, and using it in different scenarios. This is exactly what I was talking about... using it in different settings and I was surprised no one had apparently done it.

 

This is the thing that gets me... DA players, and Chaos players are guilty of doing this. Everyone gets negative on their stuff, and something comes out, and almost no one tries it, writes it off, and wonders why nothing works...? (I found this to be even worse in the chaos section where I believe I'm the only one to have tried 2-3 formations from the Christmas stuff).

 

This is great, and opens up more questions for me. For instance, did you allow other libbies to cast powers in the formation? This is a weird thing of the formation. The wording is poor but it appears the 'focused' psyker is the only one allowed to cast, so you're without even force on the rest of them.

 

So we're talking a minimum 4 libbies in a list that is Battle Forged, right? because the formation itself isn't really fieldable and would require another CAD or formation to be valid so that's a heavy HQ hit.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

Starting off, its only librarians in the formation that benefit from the formation, so outside of adding more warp charge dice to your pool there's not a whole lot of reason to take another librarian in the hq slot. Personally, I go with either belial or sammael depending on what style of army I'm going with.

 

Secondly, going voltron is optional. You can do it in your psychic phase, but you don't have to. It wraps in all the formation librarians within 12" of your chosen caster, but those outside of 12" can cast as normal. A common tactic I use is having Ezekiel loaded with buff powers hang back with a shooty squad, then have a pair of conclave librarians on bikes or with jump packs rush forwards in the same unit, pooling their powers together leaving Ezekiel to cast freely as he's outside the bubble.

 

Finally, with Force, its all force weapons in the unit. Yeah, in voltron mode you can't have each individual unit use force, but you can put all the librarians in the same unit and just cast force once, which is usually what you'd want to do anyways. If you really need instant death weapons, you probably need 2-3 of them. So, bunch them up in the movement phase with a single unit, go librarius captain planet, and then faceroll whatever you hit. Knocks thunderwolf cavalry and other multiwound deathstars absolutely senseless.

 

Honestly, the mentality you need to have with this formation is that you're taking extra librarians without using force org slots, and Dark Angel librarians more than any other chapter are force multipliers, not solo asskickers. Spread around some pfg's on biker libbys, and you have a ravenwing army that never has to jink. They aren't a traditional formation in that they operate independently; weave them into an army, and enhance that. The feeling I get when playing with this formation is that I'm turning my entire army into a rolling deathball, with 4-5 characters floating around inside. Its not a standardized 40k army, and it sure as hell doesn't run like one, but you WILL get victories by catching people off guard.

[Solrac]

Ok! Finally got around to play testing list 1 from here.

 

I played a game against a 2000pt Salamanders drop pod list. He had:

 

5 pods (Vulkan with 5 man Flamer Assault Squad, 1 Sternguard squad w/ 5 combi-meltas, 2 10 man Tac squad with mix of melta and flamer, Ironclad with Melta/HFlamer).

 

1 LRC with 5 TH/SS Termies and Lvl2 Librarian

 

2 Thunderfire Cannons

 

Predator with Twin-linked Las and Heavy Bolters

 

We played Maelstrom of War mission Deadlock as this was practice for an upcoming tournament in May as well as seeing how the conclave would go.

 

I took a Libby outside of the conclave because of comp points for the tournament but it didn't seem to matter. Between Zeke and the two Libbys in the conclave I got everything I wanted and more. I got Sanctuary, Cleansing Flame, Prescience, Perfect Timing, Psychic Shriek and Invisibility.

 

I ended up losing 11 to 9 due to the one draw back of the Conclave (and my expensive Deathstar unit in general). Lack of bodies to deal with the rest of his force. The Deathstar unit in general performed well but having 780 points tied up on the other side of the board I really struggled.

 

The Azclave bomb however was rock solid. It lost only 1 Plasmagunner and a wound each on two other Libbys. The whole game they always had Sanctuary, Prescience, Perfect Timing and enough to Shriek a unit also. So that was 3++ on the unit and FNP thanks to Az's Warlord trait, Re-roll hitting plasmas with Ignore Cover.

 

Their kill count? They killed Vulkan and 3 of his Assault Marines, 2 Thunderfire cannons and 5 Assault Termies. All in all not too bad. I had their LRC sitting in front of me most of the game shooting every turn at the Conclave and was the only unit to damage it however I couldn't do anything back to the LRC. I totally forgot I had Invisibility but frankly I wouldn't have used it being a friendly practice game.

 

I think if I were to play these guys again my backfield would need to be more mobile. The 2 10 man Tac squads did well distracting his mid field whilst waiting for the Azclave to arrive.

 

I definitely won't be using these in the Tournament. More discussion on that in the thread I linked above. Generating warp charges on a 3+ made a huge difference. In one turn I rolled 2 on a D6 so that gave me 8 Charges. I made sure Sanctuary went of using 2 dice, Prescience with 4 and got off Perfect Timing and Psychic Shriek off with 1 die each. Was very cool. Also I never periled casting Sanctuary. Got really lucky there.

 

Was a whole lot of fun!

[Prot]

So you would not be using these in a tournament? Meaning the Conclave? Or this list specifically?

 

I love Azeke bomb... I've lived by it for months, but the conclave is so expensive, on top of that. 

 

I'm glad you reported back as this is one formation I still haven't tried out. I really appreciate it.

[Solrac]

So you would not be using these in a tournament? Meaning the Conclave? Or this list specifically?

 

I love Azeke bomb... I've lived by it for months, but the conclave is so expensive, on top of that. 

 

I'm glad you reported back as this is one formation I still haven't tried out. I really appreciate it.

 

Just the list. Still debating an Azrael bomb. Even though it is effective I think I may need more anti-tank considering the Superheavies that are gonna be in the Tourney.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

Yeah, putting an Azeke bomb AND the conclave together in a maelstrom of war game just feels like a bad time. In most other missions, yeah, that'd be dangerous beyond belief, and I feel the need to try that just to see how dangerous a deathstar like that is.

 

I am curious how the non-conclave librarian worked out. I have some trouble seeing the advantage of that, especially if the plan is to wrap them all into one bomb unit; doesn't the comp rules basically mean the hq librarian and a conclave librarian would be worth the same amount of credits?

[Solrac]

Yeah, putting an Azeke bomb AND the conclave together in a maelstrom of war game just feels like a bad time. In most other missions, yeah, that'd be dangerous beyond belief, and I feel the need to try that just to see how dangerous a deathstar like that is.

 

I am curious how the non-conclave librarian worked out. I have some trouble seeing the advantage of that, especially if the plan is to wrap them all into one bomb unit; doesn't the comp rules basically mean the hq librarian and a conclave librarian would be worth the same amount of credits?

 

I didn't cast anything with him, was really there for the extra warp charge and a back up Divination if the Div Libby in the conclave died.

 

The conclave models are Cumulative 1 so Ezekiel is free, second libby is worth 2 points, third libby is worth 3 points. A fourth one would have cost me 4 points but by having him as the second HQ in the CAD I avoided paying the cost. If Comp score wasn't involved the last libby would have been in the conclave. If ML2 was a cheaper upgrade like the new SM books I would have made the other 2 Libbys ML2 and not taken a third. I had to weigh up the options though. 1 extra Warp charge or 2 extra wounds for the Deathstar.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

Oh, gotcha, sorry, on a quick scan through that comp score ruleset was a bit confusing. But yeah, I've done the same calculation in my lists with the conclave, 9 times out of 10 I go for the third librarian too, unless its a librarian that'll be on a bike or in terminator armor, then I do ml2 for the other two librarians.

[Prot]

Aside from Comp scores, I wonder if you would have been better off leaving the CAD Libby out of it? Was one warp charge truly worth it? That's a Whirlwind sitting there, pounding some Xenos scum in the background..... or perhaps Az was the issue? (I sure love AzEke bomb but the price is a lot in a 4 Libby list).

 

I could see Belial and perhaps one of the Conclave is a Termie Libby? Take the Termie Libby and join Belial's squad? (Battle brothers? Should work, right?)

 

Belial might work well for this list because I see the Conclave as requiring a Pod style list to facilitate the nature of the 12" rule as well as Mind Worm, and Psychic powers which seem short range in nature.

 

The one thing I gotta hand you is the use of Sanctuary. As someone who's been playing Grey Knights , Sanctuary is like the Emperor breathing over your shoulder with Az on an Objective. Include FnP in there somehow? Wow. I think I have the germ of a new list brewing in my thick skull!!!!!!!!

[Solrac]

Aside from Comp scores, I wonder if you would have been better off leaving the CAD Libby out of it? Was one warp charge truly worth it? That's a Whirlwind sitting there, pounding some Xenos scum in the background..... or perhaps Az was the issue? (I sure love AzEke bomb but the price is a lot in a 4 Libby list).

 

I could see Belial and perhaps one of the Conclave is a Termie Libby? Take the Termie Libby and join Belial's squad? (Battle brothers? Should work, right?)

 

Belial might work well for this list because I see the Conclave as requiring a Pod style list to facilitate the nature of the 12" rule as well as Mind Worm, and Psychic powers which seem short range in nature.

 

The one thing I gotta hand you is the use of Sanctuary. As someone who's been playing Grey Knights , Sanctuary is like the Emperor breathing over your shoulder with Az on an Objective. Include FnP in there somehow? Wow. I think I have the germ of a new list brewing in my thick skull!!!!!!!!

 

I didn't take him just for the extra warp charge it was also for the extra 2 wounds in the squad. I was soaking wounds with Librarians rather than giving up my Plasma vets.

 

I think I'd still like to try 6 DW Knights in LRC with Zeke and 2 Bog stock Libbies going for Sanctuary as a minimum for the 2++ on the Knights. Another expensive option but if used right it could wreck things. Just make sure one of the libbies grabs Telepathy or even Pyromancy for some ranged offensive capabilities. That and who doesn't like WS6 DW Knights?

 

Hopefully a new DA codex makes this more points friendly.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

Yeah, I'm planning to try using sanctic powers, never thought to do this. A PFG, or just terminators, with a banner of fortitude? It would be an unkillable phalanx. Better than the pyromancy that usually goes to waste.

[shabbadoo]

Assuming that the 'chosen' psyker is the only one capable of casting, this to me is such an immense handicap...

Fortunately it is just myth, mostly propagated by people who got (incorrect) information on the formation second hand on the intarwebz when the rumor buzz first began circulating, and who assumed it to be truth and so pooped all over the cost versus utility of the formation in thinking only one model in the formation can use their powers. The Libriarus Conclave rules do not indicate the "Chosen" psyker is the only one who can manifest powers, just that you just have to resolve all of the psychic power usage of the "Chosen" Librarian first, and then you can use the powers of the others- if there is any Warp Charge left to use, that is.

Ultimately, the Librarius Conclave formation allows us to have one psyker (usually Ezekiel because his high mastery level makes his powers more difficult to counter, but it really depends on which psyker is in the best position to use the powers at the time) be able to manifest a vast array of powers, more easily. The other upside is that the better chance of power manifestation means you problaby won't use as much dice to achieve the needed Warp Charge for power usage, meaning the psykers not "Chosen" may also be able to use a few powers too after the "Chosen" Librarian is done using his. Finally, not being required to run the Librarians as a single unit, and yet still gain the benefits of the the Formation (so long as members are within 12" to contribute to it), is great too. You can run the group as a single unit too, though that is an all-eggs-in-one-basket sort of thing which has various downsides. On the upside though, a single successful use of the Force power by any unit member gives every force weapon in the unit the Instant Death rule until th start of your next Psychic Phase, and you can always take two Librarian HQs from your regular formation and add them to the unit (they just don't get the Conclave's special rules, they not being a part of the Formation to begin with) to make it even bigger. Or swap one (or both) of the extra Llibrarians with an Interrogator-Chaplain for some extra fun, or with Azrael who will give the entire unit a 4++ save! Ezekiel, in a Drop Pod with 6 Librarians (Ezekiel and five Librarians gives access to the greatest variety of powers, as Dark Angels have access to a total of six psychic disciplines, so add a non-Librarian HQ instead, or add the 6th Librarian and double up on the discipline you hope to get any extra different power from) armed with combi-weapons, arrives, dumps a load psychic powers into the enemy (note that a unit can't manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn, so the "Chosen" model will be unleashing most of the unit's psychic devastation; the others only being allowed to used powers which the "Chosen" model, or another of the Librarians, hasn't already used), and then shoots them with a bunch of combi-whatevers. Very pricey, but potentially rather rude too. Whatever HQs are chosen to accompany the Librarius Conclave, each set-up features its own particualr brand of brutality for the enemy to experience.

And so the Librarius Conclave formation is actually rather good, and there is no need to upgrade any of the level 1 Librarians to level 2. Run three level 1 Librarians with two powers each instead of two level 2 Librarians with three powers each. Note that, if you do this, you will still gain access to six psychic powers, but you will get an extra Librarian with an extra force weapon and an extra two wounds who can make yet another unit Fearless, and overall have access to a wider array of six powers- for 5 points less! You also don't have to spend a billion dollars on models to run a Librarius Conclave formation, which is nice.

Hmm... How many Librarian models do I have right now...

P.S. In the interest of it just being cool, I would allow a Thousand Sons player to use this formation with Arhriman and Sorcerers. As Ahriman has no signature power of his own like Ezekiel's Mind Worm (which the formation doubles the range of if a Conclave member is wtihin 12"), allow that affect to apply to the range of one of Ahriman's powers with a range that isn't "Template", and the power chosen must be a Tzeentch power before any others (if applicable).

[Ania Redfang]

 

 

Assuming that the 'chosen' psyker is the only one capable of casting, this to me is such an immense handicap...

Fortunately it is just myth, mostly propagated by people who got (incorrect) information on the formation second hand on the intarwebz when the rumor buzz first began circulating, and who assumed it to be truth and so pooped all over the cost versus utility of the formation in thinking only one model in the formation can use their powers.  The Libriarus Conclave rules do not indicate the "Chosen" psyker is the only one who can manifest powers, just that you just have to resolve all of the psychic power usage of the "chosen" Librarian first, and then you can use the powers of the others- if there is any Warp Charge left to use, that is.

 

I don't think it is a myth. " However other models from this formation cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase". This is standard GW terminology, like "can only fire snap shots until the end of the turn" and generally means that the models can't do the thing in that phase, not that there's a point, still in the phase that counts as the end after which the affected models are free to do whatever. The point of this formation as I saw it was a psychic channelling of power, resulting in the other librarians not being able to cast.