Is list tailoring really a bad thing?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'll either make a list before hand that I want to test, based on theory, or fluff, or whatever. Other times, I make a list when I show up, and agree to play someone. Problem is, most of us Adults have jobs and other social obligations that we have to plan around, so when we make an arrangement to play a game beforehand, we'll build a list so that when we show up we can just get right to play. 

 

That's when this dickery becomes more of an issue, We'll arrange a game a few days in advance, and it's "I think I'll play this army, as I haven't played them in a while." So That becomes the expectation, and then all of a sudden it's changed. It's the vagueness of language that keeps getting me. I come from an intel background (my carreer field was complicated), so you have to make assumptions that fir the facts, and take things at face value, to see if the picture makes sense. If it does, you develop a course of action, if it doesn't you discard the assumption, and insert a new one. It's all about the OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act, for those of you who may not know) for me, I have to make an assumption so I can start the loop.

 

It's right out of sun-tzu, all warfare is based on deception. I get it, I'm not nice in a fight, I go for the cheap shots, but in a competition, I go for the skill, I'm not in it just to win, I'm in it to pit my skill against a skilled opponent, and If I'm lacking in skill or effort, it's apparent, and I know what to train. 40k should be the same way, WAAC is dirty, and all it teaches me, is that tactical skill means nothing and that all you have to do, is take the most overpowered thing in your dex, and build a list around it and you'll win. 

 

I hope this isn't the meta in Knoxville. If it is, I'm going to have 3 armies that don't see the light of day for a good long while. 

[Lord Blackwood]

I  run  specialist lists for close combat so I  rarely tailor , that being said all I ever do is make lists so If someone tells me oh well I brought X if you wanna switch your list up  I always have something for the appropriate points value. 

I have a game coming up against a board member and its the single most balanced list ive ever written , with no knights or hyper powerful units because the guy was nice enough to agree to a no flyers clause ( cause i hate flyers )  communication with your opponent where you are able to is the most important thing.   

If someone is a massive scumbag and plops down 4 riptides well pull yer two knights its all about give and take. ( unless you agree to that )

Ive never once built a list specificly for an opponent but I certainly have decided  to pick and choose what I field based on a conversation. 

In the event there is just , that guy in your  store who brings pure cheese , tailor to beat him  , dont even feel bad about it. 

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

More members to play games with??!! Holy good lord!! Seattle is happenin!!

 

End of Line

[Lord Blackwood]

More members to play games with??!! Holy good lord!! Seattle is happenin!!

 

End of Line

I was referring to you  

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

 

More members to play games with??!! Holy good lord!! Seattle is happenin!!

 

End of Line

I was referring to you  

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

oh, drat...

 

End of Line

[Lord Blackwood]

whats that friend , you want me to run the adamantite lance O u O  sure thing 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

This friend of mine and I played a game a while back, in which I played my wolves against his (now mine) necrons. I did the most damage to his list, than anyone has ever done. No one has managed to destroy a whole squad before me, and no one was able to destroy a monolith or clear his vehicles out. So I can claim some small victories. And now playing necrons I know their weaknesses, so I can beat them more readily. 

[Rift Blade]

Tailored lists are not neccesarily a bad thing but you may find a lack of opponents if you do it all the time. Myself, I generally run an all comers list and most of the people at the shop I play at know it so I hardly ever lack for a game if I show up. I usually only run tailored lists if someone needs a beat thumping because they are being a jerk at the shop. That is if someone else has not already done so.

[Cain21]

I would have to say if you just tell the dude he is being a prick, and everyone is getting rubbed the wrong way by his behavior then he will start to change. For instance my gaming group from a few years ago had a player that was more annoying than anything he would get in your face and talk crap about your army while playing other people, pick up your models and put them back down in a different place mid game, and the list goes on and on, well over time we started just telling him when he would do something that was upsetting, we would do it as nicely as possible In The heat of the moment but while cool we would tell him look man what your doing is unacceptable we don't want to run you off b/c our hobby has too few players as it is but you need to change because it is frustrating when (this or this happens) and we would actually enjoy your company if we can work on those problems. Then sure enough over the next year or so he became a normal person lol.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm still in the process of building an all comers list. I'm trying to get a taste of the variety of play styles out there. I can't test a concept to beat a certain tactic, or play style, if I can't play it against the tactic it was intended to beat. I can't just have someone tell me what works, I kinda need to implement it on my own.

 

I just played a game tonight against a player and his black legion build. It was a ton of fun. My list performed well, up until I got in close combat. I made some tactical errors. Didn't kill things I should have, focussed on things I shouldn't have. But in all, it was fun. I learned some good lessons, about how to play my list, and some things I need to do to tweak it. 

 

So I can tailor my list and my play style to fit the units I want to take.

[mince on toast]

if your dead set on playing "that guy" , would it be possible to bring another friends force...?

eg mech guard when he expects marine horde

 

i bet ya he plans the game down to the smallest degree based on what you usually have or could possibly get

mess with his world & mix it up

[Rift Blade]

@ Ulrik Ironfist--To me, that's what an all comers list is about. Having a basic army list of units you like playing with but can still take on most everybody. I believe what the OP is asking about is say you play arrange a game with someone who plays Dark Eldar. THey pretty much much don't have any real armour so you drop most of your anti armour for anti personal weapons & high strength weapons for those high toughness dudes. Drop any MB's off your characters, so & so forth. You have changed your army to deal specifically with your opponent & any other army is going to give you a hard time. All that being said, tailored lists can be fun if you're playing a campaign or going for specific type of battle. My 2 cents.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

@Rift Blade, I was the OP, but it's all really related. I'm still trying to figure out my all comers list, which is really why I asked the question. I'm trying to play the field and see what's out there that I need to think about. THe problem came in when I'd arrange a game, and at the last minute the guy'd switch armies on me. So all of a sudden, I went from facing the necron silver tide, to a tau broadside gunline. Now I'm introducing more variables for my army to contend with. This is partly why I'm going drop pods and fliers, because they're mobile, they get me in range to do work quickly, and it's a versatile list, I can go balls out and hit his DZ, or I can play more conservative and grab the mid field. 

 

Now, in a tournament or a campaign, you usually know what your opponent is playing, so if you can tweak your list, to be a bit more effective, like swapping out some weapons (a fusion blaster for a burst cannon, or an assault cannon for a multimelta) as long as you have the points to spare. I make a distinction between list tailoring and list tweaking.

 

Tailoring to me is building an entire list from the ground up to counter one specific list. 

 

Tweaking is taking your all comers list, and changing a few minor things to better suit the list you're up against (like I said, swapping weapons. I don't want lascannons to take on gaunts, I want plasma cannons instead, but it's still a long fang squad that was already in my list).

 

Or choosing to take CCWs on my grey hunters. It's situational, but how do you know when it's appropriate to take them? You have to know the opponenet, without that, you just always take them, and that's a ton of points to have tied up on a hunch.

 

I always like to take CCWs on my GH, because I want to get in CC eventually, once I've whittled down the opponent, but some lists just don't need them. 

 

I hope this sort of clears up my intent with the original post.

[Teetengee]

I play in a high proxy (read paperhammer) environment because it is the only way I get to play any games at all. As such players aren't really limited by their models, so we generally just agree to points limits and tell the opponent our faction. It prevents such problems as taking large amounts of haywire weaponry against nids for instance, because that quickly becomes a game that just isn't fun due to onesidedness.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

@Mince on Toast, 

 

To be completely fair, the fella I'm talking about is pretty far from being that guy. He has a tendency to build some really tough lists. But he uses lore as his guideline, not stats. He's also very good at seeing how the units work together, and playing them off one another. He just has a tendency to pick the lore that wins a lot. He roleplays the army, that is to say, he takes the attitude the army has and applies it to his tactics. 

 

With his Black Templars, he plays them fast and aggressive, lots of armour, and suicide squads. Crusader Squads in LRC, and vindicators for days. 

 

With his Tau, he's patient, waits for his opponent to come to him, all the while he's markerlighting you, stripping your cover saves, and boosting his BS. He tears you apart before you get close. And once something does get close, He tears it up with BS5 overwatch, because markerlights, and supporting fire. He always takes interceptor and skyfire, so he has a solid castle defence. 

 

I have more than one army, problem is, he knows them. I can't play my tau against him, he knows the codex intimately. I can't play my necrons, they used to be his. Now, I know his lists can be beaten, It's a matter of finding a tactic that gets me in to deal with it. The fella I'm referring to, has had a ton of compliants about his lists being OP, fact is, I'm familiar enough with the codecies he plays, to know that he's not cheesing it really hard. Sure he has some cheese, but every list is going to have some, intentional or not.

 

We have a that guy, that tries to run the most retarted cheesey crap he can, because he wants to win, has a bad attitude, and is generally a terrible human being. I've never played this individual, but I'm sure if I did, I'd probably lose, badly. And then I'd suffer the gloating, and bad gamesmanship, and I'd end up punching him in the throat. 

 

The great thing is, the fella I mentioned in the OP, is actually working with me on list building, so he's not a bad guy, just a bit gunshy with sharing info.

[SnorriSnorrison]

As a reply to the OP's question:

Sometimes, I do tailor. However that is because against optimised lists my all-comers' list isn't quite as effective as it is against other all-comers' lists. The optimised lists I take on are all-comers as well, but on a very different power level than mine since mostly they're tournament builds and I do try to be a challenge for my opponent.

Generally, I don't tailor. Once I find that my opponent has a serious advantage over me simply because his list is truly optimised and designed to wipe off my list of "favourites" (=units I like and that sound/look/feel good), then I'd challenge him again and tweak my list a little to get closer to that power-level. I can't really tailor too much because my collection of miniatures isn't that variable so the core of the army usually remains the same, but some special units that I feel are going to be more effective against a certain type of list/faction will then make an appearance. And last but certainly not least, I try to analyse what I did wrong in a game I lost, evaluate what I could've done better and then I'll consider what tactics might be suited better to take on certain lists.

The usual setup is that I don't see my opponent's list, we just agree on a points limit and tell each other the army that we'll field(=faction), so all-comers lists are kinda needed. It's just the power-level that might be different, and of course the experience of the players.

Tailoring is not a problem in itself, it just tweaks the results a bit, and of course it depends on your intentions. Do you wish to wipe the floor with a 13-year-old who's just gotten into the hobby because you desperately need to win, or do you feel like your normal list has no edge against your opponent's army? I'm of course not implying the first, since I've read in your post that you're in the game for fun, as it should be.

So in your case, tailoring is not only needed, but also the right thing to do. Agreeing on a game and deciding afterwards(after you know your opponent's army, setup and even list) from what army you choose is a different type of tailoring, in my opinion, or as I'd probably say in RL, a dick move.

I like the element of surprise in games of 40k, both to surprise my opponent and be surprised by his list as I usually don't read other codizes of armies I don't play myself. Especially non-imperial codizes I find interesting, because I get confused with all the names and weapon profiles a lot of times.

"We have a that guy, that tries to run the most retarted cheesey crap he can, because he wants to win, has a bad attitude, and is generally a terrible human being. I've never played this individual, but I'm sure if I did, I'd probably lose, badly. And then I'd suffer the gloating, and bad gamesmanship, and I'd end up punching him in the throat."

That dude sounds like the kind of guy you'd want to smack with the dread-sock.

Snorri

Edit: inserted quote for better understanding.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

@Snorri,

 

The cheesey dickwaffle, I'd just throatpunch. I like my metal Bjorn too much to use as a dread sock. Besides, throatpunching, followed by a nice thunderpunch (it's a heavy handed punch of indescribable brutality, akin to a blow from Thor's Hammer) is a feeling of true joy and befitting the nature of a true space viking. 

 

I'm pleased to see all the replies that reinforce my line of reasoning. Nice to know I'm not alone.

[Rift Blade]

Sorry Ulrik. Should have paid more attention. I guess that why I prefer All Comers list personally. With my work schedule I can't always commit to games on the regular night at the local shop so I have 3 or 4 all comers lists for different points levels & if I can show up I do & usually get a game with someone. Saves me from having to take time to figure out lists & lets me get to gaming sooner which is the fun for me. As for THAT GUY, I'm pretty sure every shop has one of those every couple of months. If he does not listen to people when they try to coach him along like Cain21 suggested, most people just won't play him. Or with the Unbound Rules, give him a dose of his own medicine. After watching a game  a month or so ago of a Knight, a bunch of Nids & an an Assassin take on Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines & Eldar(read Wraith Knight), I now know what shennanigans is really about. LOL!!!

[sn33r]

I play a lot of high tournaments and list tailoring is not dirty.. it's a must if you fought the lists I play you would be 20-0 on turn 2. My last "friendly" seen me face 3 knights 1 wraith knight a farseer and bikes. All at 1650 and boy did he summon..lol even a tailored list would have problems against this.

[Lysere]

At my store I'm the Land Raider guy, you can thank the local Tau player for part of the reason I became the Land Raider guy, the other reason is I'm a Templar player.

 

Usually speaking the bulk of my "list tailoring" is deciding on whether to take an axe or a maul for an initiate, and choosing whether the flamer or melta would be more useful. Otherwise the bulk of my list is fairly stock. If I go without Land Raiders I'll run pretty much all the other tanks I have, sometimes some bikes, and then some rhino based squads. Otherwise it's pretty much just Land Raiders with Crusader squads, some good HQs, and some distractions.

 

Occasionally I bring out units I rarely use (Like my Centurion Team) and usually I apologize for bringing them out as they tend to do a lot of damage.

 

There was one time a chaos player complained about me running three Land Raiders in a 3k list because he was "newer." (It was a 2v1) But he was running a Heldrake and Belakor, so my sympathy was short lived. He had the means to deal with them and didn't. In times like that I make sure to explain how they could have handled it better, how they could have moved differently to make sure his units could get the shots they needed.

 

One thing I always make clear, and always want to know before I finalize a list is what army I am facing. That's not tailoring since both parties have the same info, and as long as you don't take pure counter army cheese, it's perfectly fine. After all, I won't take Land Raiders against Necrons because they'll just rip it apart, yet against Tau and Orks Land Raiders can make for great transports. I won't run melta command suicide teams, or take power fists when fighting a horde, but a few initiates might find themselves armed with a flamer or power maul.

[Cain21]

There is one thing many people neglect to realize this edition that kinda goes back into 6th ed as well, and it is that since the creation of flyers, and the use of things like knights and the availability of like 8 fmc's there is really the lack of a single all comers list in most codexes, and due it large part to many people winning tournaments has some to do with who they played against or the lack of who they played against. I guess what I am really getting at is when I build lists now it a mostly all comers list but I know there are glaring weaknesses to my armies, for instance the list I am using right now is really strong until someone starts fielding more than a single flyer, or if they field more thanews one unit with s10, ap1.

[Guest loganwolf]

You become a better player sticking with a single well balanced list. Anyone can win if you make a list to counter a specific opponent but it takes more skill which makes you,a better player if you use a single balanced list.

[Frater Cornelius]

You become a better player sticking with a single well balanced list. Anyone can win if you make a list to counter a specific opponent but it takes more skill which makes you,a better player if you use a single balanced list.

 

Not necessarily. You may become a better player of that list, but you only become a good player once you have experience in everything. That means player bad lists, overpowered lists, the more different ones the better.

Once you have become a good player, you can create an optimized list for yourself, because you have the ability to judge what is good and what is bad for you (does not apply to lists other use however, it remains your opinion).

[Guest loganwolf]

I was thinking in terms of tournament preparation

[Frater Cornelius]

Then I agree ;)