The good assault units of 40k

[Karhedron]

You can for example wrap your Baal Pred with Scouts and put an assault unit behind it, this will make it difficult if he is going for a T2 charge. Depends how shooty the t-wolf list is though. Wrapping a Rifledread is really easy.

Yup, wrapping your shooty units with something expendable will certainly help get another turn of firing out of them (even if the TWC take the bait). But the key is that you need a hard-hitting CC unit behind to charge the TWC after they have charged the scouts. On their own, even 3 Baals won't make a serious dent in a TWC unit without several turns to do it.

 

Assume you go for the AC/HB Baal to get volume of fire as soon as possible. Assuming a tanking 2+ character at the front, the heavy bolters will score on average 1/3 of a wound while the Assault cannon will cause 1/2 wounds (assuming 1 wound in 6 Rends as so needs a Storm Shield save). So 3 Baals will kill just over 1 TWC model per turn (assuming none get LOSed onto a cheap fenwolf). If you get 1st turn and bubble wrap the Baals and can draw LOS to the TWC every turn then you can kill 4 of them (200-250 points) over 3 turns of shooting which will likely reduce the unit to just one or two survivors.

 

However you have taken 500 points of heavy support and a disposable Troop unit to do it and even the 1-2 surviving TWC will still happily wreck a Baal or 2 before they are finally gunned down. This also assumes a best case scenario for the BAs with the TWC going exactly where you want them and not detaching an IC or trying to charge another unit at any point. It also assumes BAs getting first turn and being able to draw LOS to the TWC with every Baal, for 3 turns straight.

 

To be fair, any SW players who engages in such a "charge of the wolfy brigade" deserves to have his over-sized canines handed to him on a plate. If the SW player gets first turn or manages to use LOS blocking terrain to reduce the incoming fire at all then at least half the TWC squad will likely reach your lines which is enough to tear the Baals and Scouts to shreds.

[knife&fork]

Hmm. Those wolf dog-horse things...let's be frank: who in their right mind is going to go toe-to-toe with them without giving them a good ranged hosing down first? Rock, paper, scissors and all that. As knife&fork said you need to consider what you want your cc unit to kill, and if you're aiming them at a full-strength killy cc unit then you must be completely doolally

While there is certainly some truth in this, the general problem is that TWC are very hard to counter with shooting before they hit your lines and start chewing through your units. They are T5 2W with a 3++ save and usually a 2+ tanking character who can LOS any AP2 hits onto a cheap wolf etc. For small-arms fire you are looking at 30-ish bolter shots to put a single wound on that unit.

If a MEQ has a storm shield you don't shoot him him with a plasma gun, you just shoot him with a regular bolter. The same hold true for TWC with a ++ or tanky character in front. Unless you have tons of S10 just shoot them with mid strength weapons and they'll die just like marines.

Tanky characters can often be avoided by LoS blocking them so that casualties has to start with models on the flank or rear.

Also make sure to force dangerous terrain checks at any opportunity. There are also tools such as tank shock. Very useful for breaking up a unit so that not all models can fight the first round, to separate a character from his unit or to force shooting casualties in a certain way.

With one or two buffs up a lib dread will also put a serious dent in them as he'll strike first and pop a wolf for every missed save.

[Frater Cornelius]

Vs. Thunder Wolves i like Rifledreads, Baals or Sicarians.

 

@Karthedronuk

 

You can for example wrap your Baal Pred with Scouts and put an assault unit behind it, this will make it difficult if he is going for a T2 charge. Depends how shooty the t-wolf list is though. Wrapping a Rifledread is really easy.

As a veteran of throwing hairy things at less hairy thing, I agree. Cheap assault screens if what really irritates me, because it forces me to shoot or even assault the screen. I like neiter.

A good TWC user will guard them. Invis, removing threats via alpha strike.

Assault screens will die in one combat phase, giving you an additional shooting phase and more time to bring that Furioso into melee.

[Shaezus]

How many points is your average full strength TWC with character / warlord? It must be quite a chunk? Point being that you can throw plenty of small arms fire at them without going overboard about it. Tanking characters are no problem, use one of your vehicles or terrain to block LOS to him.

 

The Damocles is good here too, as it does one thing no unit in our dex can: snipe with an S10 barrage.

 

Personally if my oppo has a huge wolf unit I can see an advantage in letting him go first. Let them advance, shoot them up a bit, then assault with DC, SG and anything else in reach.

[Karhedron]

How many points is your average full strength TWC with character / warlord? It must be quite a chunk?

 

Tooled up TWC + a character is normally 400-500 points. You can go a lot higher if you go for a really hard-core Thunderlord with relics and add in an Iron Priest with a few cyberwolves for disposable wounds.

 

I run Wolves as well and I would personally prefer to run 2 more modest units at around 400 points each. Your typical opponent might stop one but not both and even in a 1500 point game, that still leaves adequate points to buy them some support.

 

Personally if my oppo has a huge wolf unit I can see an advantage in letting him go first. Let them advance, shoot them up a bit, then assault with DC, SG and anything else in reach.

Or better still, if you have the first turn, shoot him up a bit with your long-ranged stuff, then let them advance, shoot them up a bit more, then assault with DC, SG and anything else in reach. ;)

 

I agree with you though, this strategy emphasizes why a large DC squad is not necessarily overkill and why sometimes the only viable counter to an opponent's death star is to hit it with one of your own.

[Shaezus]

Or better still, if you have the first turn, shoot him up a bit with your long-ranged stuff, then let them advance, shoot them up a bit more, then assault with DC, SG and anything else in reach. ;)

 

Considering the power of my SG and DC and the relative weakness of my shooting, this would be a waste of a turn ;)

 

If I ran full DC I would goe toe-to-toe with TWC. Used to do this in 6th ed. DC are already lost after all and it keeps TWC away from vulnerable stuff dor a while at least.

 

In absolute terms maybe TWC are the strongest cc unit, but on top of standard attrition tactics our S5 charge gives us an extra edge against them.

[Frater Cornelius]

I consider more than 1 unit to be bad. Too many points invested and not enough dakka.

Two units are no real threat, because you can stall them assault screens and run away while to thin them out.

I have tried it, not great.

 

My setup is 495 points at 1500-1750. 5 TWC and a Lord. A second Lord and/or 6th dude comes at 1850-2000.

This leaves me plenty of shooting power and I have one suitable target for invis from Tiggy (sometimes Loth).

 

The problem is that case are not the TWC, however. It is the stuff around them. When I see a threat to my TWC, I remove it T1. We are talking Long Fangs, Sicaran, combi melta tda pods and Centurions in pod.

Once the biggest threat is broken, the TWC rampage through the army from T2 onwards and have a good one.

 

That is a problem that BA face as well. Taking too many melee units will bite you in the arse. A melee unit is only as great as its long ranged support.

[Shaezus]

Agree completely on the ranged support. One main assault unit backed up by a smaller one is enough melee.

 

Would love to play your SW army. Unbeaten against SW so far but always close, ferocious battles.

[Frater Cornelius]

Agree completely on the ranged support. One main assault unit backed up by a smaller one is enough melee.

 

Would love to play your SW army. Unbeaten against SW so far but always close, ferocious battles.

 

Heh, get your arse over to mainland then. I will be happy to present you my finest cheddar cheese ;)

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Agree completely on the ranged support. One main assault unit backed up by a smaller one is enough melee.

Would love to play your SW army. Unbeaten against SW so far but always close, ferocious battles.

Heh, get your arse over to mainland then. I will be happy to present you my finest cheddar cheese

Mind showing us what kind of list you use so we know what to expect at 1850?

All SW players at my local tournament meta go DP heavy but no TW.

Having a hard time thinking of a reliable counter which will then not see me tailor to face them.

[Frater Cornelius]

Agree completely on the ranged support. One main assault unit backed up by a smaller one is enough melee.

Would love to play your SW army. Unbeaten against SW so far but always close, ferocious battles.

Heh, get your arse over to mainland then. I will be happy to present you my finest cheddar cheese

Mind showing us what kind of list you use so we know what to expect at 1850?

All SW players at my local tournament meta go DP heavy but no TW.

Having a hard time thinking of a reliable counter which will then not see me tailor to face them.

Well, for one, this is not the subject of this conversation, and two, my list is rather untypical and certainly no benchmark for most players out there.

However, I can tell you what you can expect from SW players. They either abuse FA drop pods by allying with Sentinels of Terra (to get Elite and HS grav Cents) and bring them down in SW pods, or they make a Deathstar build with Sevrin Loth and TWC.

Most other builds are pretty close to what SM might bring with loads of pods and combi-weapons.

Still, since you asked. This is what I used the last time when playing against competitive cheese masters:

HQ

Wolf Lord

- Thunderwolf, Runic Armour, Power Fist, Wolf Claw, Fellclaw's Teeth (re-roll all failed hits in melee)

Elite

1 Servitor (to satisfy mandatory Elite choice, best 10 points you ever spend :D)

5 TDA

- Stormshield/Combi-Melta, SS/CM, SS/CM, WC/CM, CF/CM (turns out rather cheap because WG TDA get free stormshields if they exchange them with their weapons)

Fast Attack

5 TWC

- SS/Pistol, SS/Pistol, CCW/Pistol, CCW/Pistol, PF/Pistol

Drop Pod (TDA go here)

- Deathwind Laucher

Drop Pod (Centurions go here)

- Deathwind Launcher

Heavy Support

Sicaran Battle Tank

- Dozer Blade, Schizm of Mars

6 Long Fangs

- Pack Leader in TDA with SS/SB (again, free SS)

- 5x ML

+ Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher (to have a third pod, it usually comes down empty on some objective)

UM Allies

Tigurius

5 Bolter Scouts

+ LSS

3 Grav Cents

- Omniscope

1750

I will probably switch Wolf Lord loadout to something more tanky and drop the Sicaran in favour of HB Rapiers and a 6th TWC. It varies from time to time, but the core is stable.

[Raktra]

You've got a Knight, Duke. Stand on their heads.

[d@n]

The idea that a SW player will ever let you get 10x dc near there Thunderwolves is hillerious.

[Brom MKIV]

Immersturm- That list has several elements that are very close to what I was running before handing my SW army off for other things. Its a good list if little compact. The psych I avoided because of the level of psych hate I can see makes smaller investment much less reliable for me. 

 

 

On topic, I consider TWC to be one of, if not the premiere assault unit in the game, depending on support elements that contribute. That said death company are right there with em.

 

One takes more punishment of the S8+ low ap variety (although why these would be directed at them is another matter). The other has more damage output pt for pt. Apples and oranges man.

 

I do know that TWC without storm shields are nowhere near the same threat level. Too easy to out maneuver the tanking models. This is speaking from both sides of the table.  However, even with SS there is a point (specifically S7+ and poison) where they become just meq bodies. In these instances (such as crons eldar DE tau etc, lets just say xenos but maybe add GK) the death co become better by virtue of FNP and cost/model not to mention damage output vs the more common targets. TWC excel at erasing hard targets more but can deal with lighter targets easy enough. Usually 1 on 1. DC deal with hordes and can multi assault better (talking full sized DC here) and can tackle hard targets in a pinch but not quite the level of what TWC can expect to win out against. They also stand to benefit more from cover.

 

Both must be dealt with. 

[Raktra]

The idea that a SW player will ever let you get 10x dc near there Thunderwolves is hillerious.

The idea that they'd have a choice is funnier.

[Kilofix]

Slight digression but using AM: 3 Chimeras with Multi-Laser & Heavy Bolters (18 Str 6/5 shots) with a cheap Conscript screen seem to do well against THC.

[BassWave]

A full guardsman blob with power axe sargeants and a priest is a very effective assault unit. It's the bane of my existence.

 

But Basswave, just throw templates at them. See that would work on a novice guard player, but people that know what they are doing spread out , allowing you only a couple hits per template.

[Antarius]

A full guardsman blob with power axe sargeants and a priest is a very effective assault unit. It's the bane of my existence.

But Basswave, just throw templates at them. See that would work on a novice guard player, but people that know what they are doing spread out , allowing you only a couple hits per template.

"Fear of the Darkness" seems like a good bet for a BA player. You can't be sure to get it though.

[Frater Cornelius]

Every IG player worth his salt will have a Priest in the blob, or any other source of Fearless.

It is a decent way to make Veterans or Weapon Teams run though.