Dante + Bikesquad

[Remtek]

Bikes are cheaper than Jump DC and T5, it gives Dante majority toughness 5 for fnp (with a priest). And the bikes can still jink with a jump model attached. According to rules non jink models are not affteced by the jink, so he can shoot at normal BS.

 

Considering the price, 4+ cover and 5+ fnp makes for pretty good LoS models. It Gives a lot of shooting potential for bikes with hit'n'run. It's also fnp vs strength 9 in all except challenges.

 

8 bikes + a priest is about the same price as 10 JP DC with no upgrades. 

 

They are also less prone to templates and blasts, but can't move over terrain as freely. Other than that i can't really see any huge downsides.  Did i miss any rules? I'm seing a lot of potential for a solid grav/assault platform.

 

 

[Karhedron]

It seems so wrong in my head and yet your analysis looks sound. Too bad we are limited to 2 specials and a combi in a bike squad. Still looks like a great way to spread the hitting power around effectively though. In many ways, Dante is overkill in a DC or SG unit (unless you need something to counter an opposing deathstar).

[Deschenus Maximus]

Interesting. I'm not sure it's the best use of its abilities, but it's something to think about.

[Remtek]

Last game i felt that Dante + DC were doing to much dmg. If running this i would still run a seperate DC unit, so vs Deathstars you would have to collapse with everything.

 

Here is the math vs str 8 or higher with FNP (tax of priest is added to avg cost of model)

 

You could guestimate around 20-25 points lost on one Orbital Strike if you factor in scatter. Ignore cover will of course be a soft counter, but you still get the FNP and they are fairly cheap.

 

Edit: If you put unit's like SG and DC in ruin's they will catch up quite a bit in terms of survivability, but with this unit, you can pretty much be comfortable running straight up the board. DC can get the 5+ cover if they run in i similar formation behind them. 

[Jolemai]

The Jink would not affect Dante as he's 1) not embarked and 2) Jink does not spread onto a unit: either the model comes with it or without it and thus you Jink on a model by model basis (not normally a problem as the whole squad has it). As an example, if you reversed this and had one bike Character "tanking" for a unit of jumpers, he could jink the shots away and the jumpers wouldn't be affected.

[Remtek]

Yeah Dante would not get the 4+, but you can still los wounds over to bikes or put the bikes in front. He will get T5 though (except challenges)

I need to check how LoS + Cover save saves work. Since you 'jump out' in front of the shooting attack with a jinking bike. I'll check when i get home. If it's not possible it would be fine to run the bikes in front and let them eat wounds.

[Jolemai]

Dante would get his own 4++ :p

[Remtek]

I mean't if you los, will the bike get 4+ if it's jinking?

[Jolemai]

Technically, yes. However, I guess it depends on how your group plays the Jink rules - basically, *when* you declare you are Jinking can vary from group to group and if you have passed the time when you announce you are Jinking, they may not let you do it.

 

Either discuss it with your group or don't let Dante tank anything :)

[Blindhamster]

i also find it off that he gets to count his T as 5 for FNP, as FNP is done AFTER wounding and isnt based on majority toughness...

[Remtek]

i also find it off that he gets to count his T as 5 for FNP, as FNP is done AFTER wounding and isnt based on majority toughness...

Yup you are right. Dante won't get FNP from str 8 plus with majority toughness. It will only help against enemy 'to wound' rolls. It will still help a lot vs str 4 and 5.

 

The main principal is the same, bikes are amazing tank's per point and you will get to abuse Dante's hit'n'run while still doing a lot of dmg in both assault and shooting phase. Leaving combat in the end of enemy movement phase will give you those full BS grav/melta salvos and more charge bonuses while still being able to jink. 

 

Edit:

Seem's like White Scar's would not be able to replicate this combo as efficiently with a Chapter Master. Since you need Eternal Warrior, that is one attack lost for CM, they usually go with Thunder Hammer which would mean taking a lot more dmg in close combat. You would need two relics then for a strong high init weapon. There is also the BA bikes giving two attacks each on the charge with WS5, Init 5, str 5. Dante is cheaper and has an extra melta pistol to boot. Command squad would be somewhat close, but less potent. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Remtek, you've inspired this: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300874-dantestar/

[bigted]

This sounds effective, in fact the only problem I can see is running Dante with SG is much cooler .

[Shaezus]

Very interesting and original concept Remtek :)

 

Would you build your army around this? If so what sort of build and what role would Dante and his Hell's Angels have in it?

 

First impressions are that it seems like a perfect hit-and-run unit, perhaps better suited to this than SG or DC. But it lacks the staying power and killiness of SG, so you would need something else if you want to pin a powerful enemy unit and grind it down in assault? Depends on the army and your style I suppose, but I will follow its progress with interest!

[Red-beard]

The problem I see with this approach is that Dante and bikes are good at different things. 

 

1) Bikes are good at shooting with their relentless heavy weapons and TL bolt guns.....I want bikes to shoot, I want Dante in CC.

2) Bikes have a large turbo-boost move that can be used to get across the map when needed. Dante can't keep up with this,

 

I like to run Dante with a CC equipped command squad w/ jump packs and a melta pistol or two. You still get the FNP in this setup, and the command squad two attacks and power weapons makes for a beastly CC threat. Granted you're not majority T5, but you're not taking a good bike unit out of its normal role. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

The problem I see with this approach is that Dante and bikes are good at different things. 

 

1) Bikes are good at shooting with their relentless heavy weapons and TL bolt guns.....I want bikes to shoot, I want Dante in CC.

 

Did you forget that Dante gives the squad Hit & Run?

 

2) Bikes have a large turbo-boost move that can be used to get across the map when needed. Dante can't keep up with this,

 

Just split them off if you have to do this.

 

Comments in red.

[Red-beard]

 

The problem I see with this approach is that Dante and bikes are good at different things. 

 

1) Bikes are good at shooting with their relentless heavy weapons and TL bolt guns.....I want bikes to shoot, I want Dante in CC.

 

Did you forget that Dante gives the squad Hit & Run?

 

2) Bikes have a large turbo-boost move that can be used to get across the map when needed. Dante can't keep up with this,

 

Just split them off if you have to do this.

 

Comments in red.

 

 

I didn't forget about hit and run. I just don't think it's relevant. 

 

But what happens before you assault? Are you firing all those bolt guns at a target? For what purpose? Any models you kill just lengthens your charge distance and increases the risk of Dante not getting into assault. This is the same reason I don't like putting bolt guns on DC.

 

So your other option is to not shoot....but then you're wasting all those biker shooting attacks. Additionally, bikes are not good assault units. You're sending Dante into melee without a strong supporting unit. 

 

Also, what is the point of assigning Dante an escort unit if you break him off the bikes the first time you need to turbo boost? Then Dante is left unprotected. This is the inherent problem with having a model join Dante that has a different natural role. 

 

I'm not saying this setup can't work. I'm just saying I prefer using command squads to escort Dante.

[Shaezus]

@ red-beard I think the point of using bikes is the T5. That and the lower cost. It's swings and roundabouts although this unit would be just as vulnerable to plasma and other AP2 which is never lower than S7.

 

Also means you could hurl a dedicated melee unit into assault without risking Dante or use them to pin the enemy then Dante and bikes can hit and run if needed.

 

Not the way I would go but it allows for a more flexible and mobile style of play which would suit different builds.

[Remtek]

The problem I see with this approach is that Dante and bikes are good at different things.

1) Bikes are good at shooting with their relentless heavy weapons and TL bolt guns.....I want bikes to shoot, I want Dante in CC.

2) Bikes have a large turbo-boost move that can be used to get across the map when needed. Dante can't keep up with this,

I like to run Dante with a CC equipped command squad w/ jump packs and a melta pistol or two. You still get the FNP in this setup, and the command squad two attacks and power weapons makes for a beastly CC threat. Granted you're not majority T5, but you're not taking a good bike unit out of its normal role.

The main point of the bikes is to be a cost effective tank unit with jink and fnp. Most of the time you will be jinking (except those hit'n'runs). Your not that shooty, around 10% of the unit cost is weapon taxes, your paying for wounds and situanional shooting.

This unit has a huge edge on transports (open them in shooting, assault them next). You can split off priest/Dante, or only Dante when called for. If you need to turbo-boost there are some conga line options where you keep Dante in or unit splitting for turn 5-6-7.

Opponent will be forced to use a lot of non ideal weapons to take out this unit since you have what is basically a 3++ vs most ranged weapons. The difference being that a bike cost less than half than a stormshield termie. Dante will partially keep bikes safe from beatstick IC's with challenges, they still get the FNP.

Very interesting and original concept Remtek

Would you build your army around this? If so what sort of build and what role would Dante and his Hell's Angels have in it?

First impressions are that it seems like a perfect hit-and-run unit, perhaps better suited to this than SG or DC. But it lacks the staying power and killiness of SG, so you would need something else if you want to pin a powerful enemy unit and grind it down in assault? Depends on the army and your style I suppose, but I will follow its progress with interest!

I think staying power is this unit's strongest aspect, their main role is to get to bait shooting attacks away from the rest of the armie. The 8 normal bikes alone can tank 44 bs4 lascannons shots on avg. If your up against TWC and get charged it will hurt, but they would also annihilate SG or DC at full strength and charging.

Not sure on a specific list, but something like this:

Partially complete 1350ish list. Thinking of Deathwind x3 on pods for a cheap anti horde solution. Scouts will infiltrate to support pod's with counter assault or stay hidden at objectives.

8 Bikes two grav one combi grav meltabomb Attack Bike Multi Melta joins bike Priest Bike Relic Sword Dante DC 10 JP 1 fist Scouts close combat Scouts close combat ASM 2melta combimelta POD ASM 2melta combimelta POD Fragioso with Pod

[Remtek]

Remtek, you've inspired this: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300874-dantestar/

 

I like the concept with the Captain as well, forgot that he is still mini EW riding the bike. 3++ LoS is really nice. 

[Jolemai]

So, one large squad with Dante and a Priest (with Auspex). Give the Sergeant a Power Lance, add in two Special Weapons (Melta?) and an Attack Bike. Then add two more squads each with triple Grav and an Attack Bike.

 

How would you build the list from here? Obviously we want to go for BSF?

 

Devastators to go full Blood Rodeo style?

Adeptus Astartes Stormwing for Flyer cover?

Legion of the Damned for more Grav shenanigans?

RAS Melta Pods?

Tactical HF Pods?

Imperial Knight Paladin? (or Cerastus Knight Acheron?)

[Karhedron]

If you are flying a Raven (either solo or as part of a Stormwing), you could do worse than get a cheap CCW Scout squad to ride in it. Covers part of your Troop tax for the BSF and quite handy at charging back-field units from turn 3 onwards.

[Remtek]

So, one large squad with Dante and a Priest (with Auspex). Give the Sergeant a Power Lance, add in two Special Weapons (Melta?) and an Attack Bike. Then add two more squads each with triple Grav and an Attack Bike.

 

How would you build the list from here? Obviously we want to go for BSF?

 

Devastators to go full Blood Rodeo style?

Adeptus Astartes Stormwing for Flyer cover?

Legion of the Damned for more Grav shenanigans?

RAS Melta Pods?

Tactical HF Pods?

Imperial Knight Paladin? (or Cerastus Knight Acheron?)

 

I'd go two grav + combi on Dante bike unit melta bomb on sarge relic sword on priest. M-Melta on the attack bike. The other fast slots for 2pods with assault marines with 2xmelta c-melta. That would be my core,  roughly 700-750 points. I would't want any other bike squads for two reaons: Loosing the assault pod's and the other bikes won't have hit'n'run or fnp. 

 

The Adeptus Astartes Stormwing formation is actually a pretty good idea, as it forces the army even more to shoot at the bike unit. I lack Storm Talon models though, i'm inclined to keep the list pure BA. Jump Unit's are nice since they can go over buildings perhaps 2 x 5 jump DC, for some death msu? I need something that can either support bikes vs Deathstars, or spread out and be annoying. Knights would be good, but i don't like that playstyle.

 

If you are flying a Raven (either solo or as part of a Stormwing), you could do worse than get a cheap CCW Scout squad to ride in it. Covers part of your Troop tax for the BSF and quite handy at charging back-field units from turn 3 onwards.

 

That's a great idea if running Raven's, it keep's the cargo inexpensive, while being able to grab objectives easy lategame. 

[Remtek]

Been able to test the lists now though it still needs more testing. The offensive close combat power is still to much, next game i will drop the libby, only Dante and Priest. Difficult to utilize hit'n'run when the unit is wiping everything in the round it assaults. Removal of Libby should fix this and save some points. Survivability is through the roof, it's nice having a unit that does not need to utilize cover.

 

I ran 3 small 6 man units of DC (1 fist in each) that moved up through terrain and two ASM Rhinos with 2melta+ combi melta. This was the core of the list. Gonna test with POD's next game. 

 

Since bikes can still turbo with Dante in unit you can cover some crazy distances turn one vs. shooty lists. Hit'N'Run lets you disenage tarpit in the end of opponents turn two which lands you pretty much anywhere you want to be.

 

Run move and assault distance is random, in example below it's Dante rolling a 2 on run.