Deschenus Maximus Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 So I am really starting to think that running big units of DC and SG is generaly not the best thing to do. Reason is that they tend to vastly overkill anything they butt heads with and then get left out in the open to get shot to death. Now you can do a multicharge to try to mitigate that, but then you lose a ton of bonuses (FC, Red Thirst, Rage) and its not even always possible in the first place. Agree/disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Disagree. One of the main reasons SG weren't competitive before was their limited squad size. Now with a large squad they can take the hits and still have enough numbers to cause problems once they reach enemy lines. Same goes for DC now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 There is technically no reason why you couldn't do 3 squads of 5 DC instead of one big squad of 15. For SG its a bit different because there are some noticeable advantages to having a big squad (better cost-efficiency of taking the banner and attaching a Priest), but I am unconvinced its necessarily better than having multiple small squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Like all things, it depends on your build and style. For example putting Dante with a five man squad is just asking for it. Taking multiple smaller squads eats up more FOC slots also. Just depends on what you're after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I'm not sure a 15 man squad of DC is a great idea, but 8-10 man DC or SG should be fine in most lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 I'm not sure a 15 man squad of DC is a great idea, but 8-10 man DC or SG should be fine in most lists. A 8-10 man DC squad, ok, but a same-sized squad of SG? Short of hitting a massive blob or something scary-hard, they'll wipe the floor with whatever they charged and their ass will be hanging in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Well, I haven't tested it yet, but I don't think an 8 man SG would be too much. Sure it will wipe a 10 man tac on the charge, but harder targets/multi charging should still be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 It depends what else you are bringing, i guess it's a slot issue as well. DC are fairly strong without a HQ, for my 1250 i have 3 6man units with one fist. I think it's better than a blob since they are not getting buffed by anything. It's easier to counter charge vs a tough assault army, or play the objective game. SG are a bit different. The chapter banner gets stronger the more stuff you attach to the unit, and you really need a HQ to soak some dmg with invul saves when you are out in the open. If you could take 3 SG for less than 100 points i'd be inclined to do that. Feels like the sweet spot is 7-8. Just my 2 cents, still early and little playtesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I'm not sure a 15 man squad of DC is a great idea, but 8-10 man DC or SG should be fine in most lists. A 8-10 man DC squad, ok, but a same-sized squad of SG? Short of hitting a massive blob or something scary-hard, they'll wipe the floor with whatever they charged and their ass will be hanging in the wind. If you are worried about winning too much (You rarely should be, but that's another matter) then limit the amount of models that make it into combat by positioning. Or do a multi assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 It depends, tau or guard can easily wipe out a small squad of dc with shooting in a turn, before they can get into assault and they are the armys there most useful against, and hordes like ork boyz or cultists can keep a small unit of dc locked in combat for ages. Against Very elite units like thunder wolves or terminators you need to overwhelm, with lots of attacks. So small units of dc are not the best way of playing them. You need around 10 marines. Try swapping out there bolt pistols rather then chainsword for power weapons/ fists on a few models and then you can hit with there chainsword in your round of combat and mop up what's left by using your power fists/ weapons in there turn, if you think your going to table a unit in one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortez Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 If your hitting a unit with buffs such as invisibility with just the SG then I'd recommend the extra bodies just to shift it. But if your using your units in concert with each other the bigger unit might not be needed. I ran only 5 sang guard vs CSM, used tac squad RB's to screen my jump units. Had Belakor buffing invisibility on a Khorne unit in a LR with a Lord with axe of blind fury. Baited them with a unit of 7 JP DC with Libby then charged them in my turn with TH termis (drop podded previous turn) and the SG/Dante unit. Combat was pretty close until Belakor fudged his cast then it was all over for the CSM. I just like the fact I can have a fully kitted 5 man squad for the same price as the old bare bones unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 There is technically no reason why you couldn't do 3 squads of 5 DC instead of one big squad of 15. Unless you want to put them all in the same transport, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 There is technically no reason why you couldn't do 3 squads of 5 DC instead of one big squad of 15.Unless you want to put them all in the same transport, of course. Unless you are planning to add a Chaplain in which case the buff helps more models in a bigger unit. Also, lack of Elite slots could become a factor unless you wish to field a Mortalis formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 Well, I haven't tested it yet, but I don't think an 8 man SG would be too much. Sure it will wipe a 10 man tac on the charge, but harder targets/multi charging should still be ok. That's just the thing - would you really want to go after the really hard stuff with SG? Without an invul, they are likely going to suffer an ignoble end. And therein lies the problem of the SG's design: too killy to just go after regular units, not survivable enough to go after the hard stuff. If you could take 3 SG for less than 100 points i'd be inclined to do that. Agreed, that would be optimal. If you are worried about winning too much (You rarely should be, but that's another matter) then limit the amount of models that make it into combat by positioning. Or do a multi assault. Limiting the amount of models in combat is difficult due ot random charge length. Could work perfectly or it might fail utterly. Multi-assault is dependant on your opponent cooperating with you to let you do that. And you lose all your bonuses associated with being BA. It depends, tau or guard can easily wipe out a small squad of dc with shooting in a turn, before they can get into assault and they are the armys there most useful against, and hordes like ork boyz or cultists can keep a small unit of dc locked in combat for ages. Against Very elite units like thunder wolves or terminators you need to overwhelm, with lots of attacks. So small units of dc are not the best way of playing them. You need around 10 marines. Try swapping out there bolt pistols rather then chainsword for power weapons/ fists on a few models and then you can hit with there chainsword in your round of combat and mop up what's left by using your power fists/ weapons in there turn, if you think your going to table a unit in one turn. I'm not advocating taking only a single small squad of DC, though. Take 3-4 smaller squads and have them move together to charge tougher opponents when needed. Unless you want to put them all in the same transport, of course. Honestly, there is no situation under which I would do this now that Jump Packs are only 3 pts a pop. Unless you are planning to add a Chaplain in which case the buff helps more models in a bigger unit. Also, lack of Elite slots could become a factor unless you wish to field a Mortalis formation. If I was going to buff DC, I'd go with a libby rather than a chappy. But again, you're taking the overkill problem and making it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Well, I haven't tested it yet, but I don't think an 8 man SG would be too much. Sure it will wipe a 10 man tac on the charge, but harder targets/multi charging should still be ok. That's just the thing - would you really want to go after the really hard stuff with SG? Without an invul, they are likely going to suffer an ignoble end. This is why I have been considering the formation with 2 Vanguard and 1 Sternguard. With every Vanguard getting a free power weapon (or lightning claw) they are as killy as SG, but can still take Storm sheidls to help survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 The Sanguinary Guard on their own would be a solid anti-MEQ unit but nothing more. That's why Dante complements them so well. Together they can do pretty much anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 This is why I have been considering the formation with 2 Vanguard and 1 Sternguard. With every Vanguard getting a free power weapon (or lightning claw) they are as killy as SG, but can still take Storm sheidls to help survivability. Yes that is really solid. 10 guys, 5 w/ LC and Shield, 5 w/ power axes. Nothing is going to enjoy going up against that. The Sanguinary Guard on their own would be a solid anti-MEQ unit but nothing more. That's why Dante complements them so well. Together they can do pretty much anything. Eh, I guess that is true but man oh man that's a costly unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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