Bringing Lords of War

[Robdukes]

Man i wish I could take Dante. The libs and priests going HQ really crowds that slot. Being able to take a LoW would help alot. Only problem is..noone in my gaming group ever used one. So as soon as I mentioned it, it was "ill play against it once but if its stupid strong i wont play against it again until I buy some LoW". And "he must be super strong if youre arguing for it" Basically meaning if I do halfway decent or god forbid win, it'll be crying about me using a LoW. My main opponent brings imperial knight detachments and thats fine..but i mention a LoW and its enough to spark an arms race for the toughest lords of war dude can find. He's got money to burn hence the knights etc.

 

So I dont want to bring that to our gaming group. The knights are tough enough to take out..and since i managed to kill one last game im sure next game there will be some new crazy things on the table as it is. I totally agree about agreeing upon using them in your group. But im not a fan of playing against destroyer table weapons and things that take out 10 man squads with 1 of their multiple shooting attacks.

 

Am I wrong in thinking there are much more powerful LoW out there? Dante's stats haven't changed. They gave him EW and took unweildy off his axe. I just want the extra slot so i can take sang priests again. Not turn every game into apocalyptic insanity.

 

Sorry for venting a bit in here. Been thinking about this and was hoping for some opinions to let me know if I'm way off base here and overthinking this. Or are my concerns legitimate?

[MephistonTheLordOfDeath]

He's only a lord of war because of his status as a chapter master, just like Seth. Is Dante a powerful character? Hell yeah, but there's a reason he costs 220 points to field and you opponent spend 370 points a pop to field his Knights. There are plenty of lords of war that are legitimately worthy of his tears, but when chapter masters are being added to the slot, I personally just look at the lord of war slot as a secondary HQ slot that can impact the game in a couple of scenarios from the escalation rule book, if your opponent doesn't field a lord of war.

 

Bottom line, if your opponent is fielding a detachment of Knights, the guy shouldn't complain about anything!

[Ushtarador]

Sounds like the people in your group are quite silly.. ^^

 

Suggest that non-superheavy Lords of War should be allowed, as they really are not different from their previous incarnations, they just moved slots. If they are reasonable people, they should realize quickly that there's no reason against him, else dreadsock them ,P

[simison]

Yeah, I find it very curious that people are crying foul over a Lord of War when the Knights are super-heavy walkers that, at one point, could've been taken as a Lord of War instead of a Knight detachment.

[Robdukes]

Thanks for the responses. It seems I am right in thinking knights are way farther in the "cheese" category than Dante or Seth. Although I don't care if dude brings knights, seeing as they cost so much. So I willingly play against them without complaint even though I don't own any super heavies. But him insinuating that im trying to be unfair by bringing a LoW. And that if I do he's going to buy some crazy LoWs pissed me off a bit.

 

I like the idea of no super heavy LoWs. That's the kind of advice I need. To keep our group on as level a field as I can. Some of the guys have to field every unit they own to put up 1500 to 2k points. They've also never beat this dudes knight army. Dont want them getting disenchanted with 40k by being spanked constantly lol. Ok maybe im going a bit far with that.

 

Either way thanks for the advice. Any tips are appreciated.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Stupid. Personaly, I will gladly play against LoWs but I categoricaly refuse to play againt superheavies.

[Robdukes]

Gotta admit..it was pretty sweet taking out his knight with my DC last game. He was definitely not happy. But I did find the destroyer weapon table OP compared to anything in my 5th ed codex and understand why people refuse to play against them. But they are cool models and I also understand why dude wants to be able to field them. I was hoping for the same understanding since I bought a Dante model some months back.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I just hate having superheavies being part of the "normal" 40k now. Completely out of scale for a battle game. What's the next step? Being able to purchase Exterminatus?

 

Sorry for ranting but this topic always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Jolemai]

So you won't play against Imperial Knights?

[Remtek]

Our group allows LoW, but superheavies are kinda nay. One if fine, but adamantium lance would be frowned upon. I think it's fine as long as both agree to bring WAC lists. 

 

Try to compare Dante to a chapter master next time you play, no orbital and worse invul, but more utility.

[Deschenus Maximus]

So you won't play against Imperial Knights?

 

Without prior warning? Hell no. I would consider playing against one once in a while if requested to do so, but for day-to-day gaming, I prefer "not-Apoc" 40k.

 

Edit: I just bought a Knight myself, so it's not a question of jealousy.

 

It's not just a question of what effect they have on the balance of the game, but also of what effect it has on the feel of the game. When every single skirmish features a supposedly-rare superheavy, it really starts to negatively affect my suspension of disbelief.

[tsijben]

Don't say you will bring a Lord of War, instead say you will field Dante ;)

When you mention LoW, people immediately think of SHV's and GMC's and that is probably what they are thinking of.

[girot]

Why is it this game community plagued by angry control freak manchildren? Between this and the "let that guy win so he doesn't throw a tantrum" conversation I kinda want to roll into some of these stores and start issuing imperial spankings.

Thank goodness the majority of the regulars here are rational adults. If Robdukes came at my bugs with Dante? Pfff! Bring it on Goldy Wilson! I will nom-nom-nom your ass or die trying!

[girot]

@ Imperial Knights obvious attempts at auto-win:  To be fair if someone brings something to the table that basically wins him the game outright?  Nah.  I'll just concede right on the spot.  If you really need that "instant kill" to boost your self esteem?  It's all yours homie.  I'll be over there having fun.

 

EDIT:  while Knights were the example given above this sentiment applies to any no-win situation.  a competitive challenge is one thing.  intentionally shoving my arm into a wood chipper is another.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@ Imperial Knights:  To be fair if someone brings something to the table that basically wins him the game outright?  Nah.  I'll just concede right on the spot.  If you really need that "instant kill" to boost your self esteem?  It's all yours homie.  I'll be over there having fun.

 

Knights aren't necessarily autowin, but you really have to be prepared to take them on. Some lists would have zero ability to fight them otherwise.

[girot]

This actually reminds me of my first 'Ard Boys tournament.  During the second round my opponent won in Turn 4.  I conceded when it was clear I'd lost and offered him my hand in congratulations.  His face sunk and he just stared at the table for a moment.  When I asked him if he was okay he begged me to let him finish the following turn so he could finish clearing the table with his 9000 lascannons.  The judge was watching from over his shoulder and he just gave me this hard look that said "let him or your outta here".  So I smiled, patted him on the shoulder, and stepped out for a cigarette while he blew up the rest of my army.

[JamesI]

@ Imperial Knights:  To be fair if someone brings something to the table that basically wins him the game outright?  Nah.  I'll just concede right on the spot.  If you really need that "instant kill" to boost your self esteem?  It's all yours homie.  I'll be over there having fun.

Is a Imperial Knight autowin, really? 

[girot]

 

@ Imperial Knights:  To be fair if someone brings something to the table that basically wins him the game outright?  Nah.  I'll just concede right on the spot.  If you really need that "instant kill" to boost your self esteem?  It's all yours homie.  I'll be over there having fun.

 

Knights aren't necessarily autowin, but you really have to be prepared to take them on. Some lists would have zero ability to fight them otherwise.

 

Fair enough.  It's more a matter of the attitude and intent of my opponent.  If I've got a chance to prepare to take one on as a challenge I'd be most excited.  If they are simply looking to muscle a victory because they can't handle losing?  Nah.  I'm there to have fun not to patch holes in the other guy's self esteem with my models.

[girot]

 

@ Imperial Knights obvious attempts at auto-win:  To be fair if someone brings something to the table that basically wins him the game outright?  Nah.  I'll just concede right on the spot.  If you really need that "instant kill" to boost your self esteem?  It's all yours homie.  I'll be over there having fun.

Is a Imperial Knight autowin, really? 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Wow, lots of knight fans in here.  I'd love to get one or two myself but probably wouldn't field it outside of Apocalypse or by request.

[JamesI]

For the Knight, I think it really depends.  If the local meta includes Baneblades and Stompas and the like it fits in.  If not it can be really potent. 

[Red-beard]

Imperial Knights are far from OP or unbalanced. People that say otherwise need to play more games with knights. Just because you need to use tactics against them and can't one-shot them from across the map with a lucky lascannon shot does not mean they are OP. Silly argument, really. I'd much rather face an Imperial Knight than I would a Riptide.

 

Adamantium Lance is unbalanced. But so is a list with three Riptides...or three wraith knights...or SM biker spam....or SM drop-pod spam.....or pretty much any list that spams good units. This doesn't mean Imperial Knights are broke and doesn't mean models should be banned. 

 

Also, there are super-heavies that are not LoW and LoW that are not super-heavies. People need to stop using those two terms interchangeably, because it just confuses the whole discussion....banning LoW to keep super-heavies out of the game makes no sense. People that do this are stuck in 6E when there were only super-heavy LoWs. The recent 7E codexes have really changed what it means to be a LoW model...it's no longer something reserved for units taken from Escalation.

 

I do empathize with the OP that certain TOs and gaming groups have been slow to recognize these things. All we can do is keep preaching. 

[The Yncarne]

If the Knights weren't so overwhelming for many opponents I doubt they'd have the win percentage they do, at least in tournaments (a setting sure to bring out the competitive players). I'm fairly ambivalent on their use myself as I would struggle to field an army capable of dealing with them. Certainly the game designers' mantra of troops heavy lists wins games rings hollow to me when facing Knights and their ilk.

 

My group is very conservative and I'm struggling along the same lines as the OP. Lords of War (LoW) have a reputation for being bane blade level units. I suspect that will change as more codexes place former HQs in LoW. The rapid release schedule and changes with formations, detachments, relics, warlord traits etc have been challenging to those of us that have played since Rogue Trader. There's definitely a feeling of loss of control which is what I think the OP is facing.

 

We shouldn't let fear of the unknown prevent us from having fun or at least trying something new. The OP should know he's not alone, but I recommend giving the LoW a shot anyway. If nothing else, switch armies and let your opponent see how Dante doesn't mean a curb stomping is inevitable.

[Frater Cornelius]

Imperial Knights are far from OP or unbalanced. People that say otherwise need to play more games with knights. Just because you need to use tactics against them and can't one-shot them from across the map with a lucky lascannon shot does not mean they are OP. Silly argument, really. I'd much rather face an Imperial Knight than I would a Riptide.

 

Adamantium Lance is unbalanced. But so is a list with three Riptides...or three wraith knights...or SM biker spam....or SM drop-pod spam.....or pretty much any list that spams good units. This doesn't mean Imperial Knights are broke and doesn't mean models should be banned. 

 

Also, there are super-heavies that are not LoW and LoW that are not super-heavies. People need to stop using those two terms interchangeably, because it just confuses the whole discussion....banning LoW to keep super-heavies out of the game makes no sense. People that do this are stuck in 6E when there were only super-heavy LoWs. The recent 7E codexes have really changed what it means to be a LoW model...it's no longer something reserved for units taken from Escalation.

 

I do empathize with the OP that certain TOs and gaming groups have been slow to recognize these things. All we can do is keep preaching. 

 

Heh, I would rather face two knights than a single Wraithknight. Hell, it ain't even hard to remove two knights T1 by an alpha strike list. But seriously, is this worth discussing?

My M.O. with guys like the one OP mentioned is to their their knight and shove it up their rear entry point. Dante is as much a Lord of War in the rules as a bloody Shield Eternal CM would be.

 

At pretty much all German tournaments they allow all non-super-heavy and non-gargantuan-creature LoW.

[Xenith]

This actually reminds me of my first 'Ard Boys tournament.  During the second round my opponent won in Turn 4.  I conceded when it was clear I'd lost and offered him my hand in congratulations.  His face sunk and he just stared at the table for a moment.  When I asked him if he was okay he begged me to let him finish the following turn so he could finish clearing the table with his 9000 lascannons.  The judge was watching from over his shoulder and he just gave me this hard look that said "let him or your outta here".  So I smiled, patted him on the shoulder, and stepped out for a cigarette while he blew up the rest of my army.

 

What did you expect? It was 'Ard Boyz, the most nasty, WAAC tournament ever. Using that as an example is hardly appropriate.

[BassWave]

Knights aren't scary. I've played with and against them, and if you know what you're doing, you can drop them like a sack of manure. If you can't take down one knight, then you wouldn't survive at all against normal tank armies. I will agree though, the adamantine lance is hard and a kinda mean against players with no experience on fighting knights. I also agree that people should give people the heads up when their bringing knights, much like when people brought flyers in 6th Ed.

 

This fear of knights really needs to stop. I recently had an eldar player complain about the knight, as he he wiped it from the table with two strikes from his xeno heavy weapons. One of them coming from his wraith knight...

 

Lords of war codex characters likewise don't deserve the fear they recieve. Yes they are good, but not game breaking.