Did the Blood Angels get the Short straw?

[CaptainLNH]

Fellow Blood Angel players,  I wanted to ask if anyone else who has read and looked at the new codex thinks that Blood Angels have been given the short straw, ripped off, cheated of potential and power in game, or otherwise been given a lack of love from GW compared to other Space Marines. 

 

Firstly, BA units get the army wide universal special rule 'furious charge', a big whooping +1 str. only when charging.  A very situational ability/bonus.  If we compare it to other Astartes groups that have been given a relatively recently updated codex it seems that everyone else has been given a serious boost.  The least powerful of which is the Dark Angels army wide rule, which is actually two different rules depending on the unit.  The 'grim resolve' is for basic units and makes them 'stubborn' (a universal special rule) and in addition they cannot choose to fail.  The second is called 'inner circle' and makes them both 'fearless' and 'preferred enemy Chaos Space Marines', two whole universal special rules compared to the BAs one.  Unlike furious charge which only applies in one instance, stubborn takes effect for all moral and pinning checks which have many causes in different phases of the game, from psychic powers to close combat and shooting.  Next is the Space Wolves, who get not one but two universal special rules for their army wide use, Counter attack and acute senses.  Either one is arguably just as useful if not more in the case of counter attack than furious charge.  But I ask once again, why do BA get only one and the SW get two?  Lastly, the almighty chapter tactics of the Codex Space Marines, which are varied and quite powerful in comparison to receiving a single universal special rule.  The most assault oriented of these is the Raven Guard chapter tactics, which give all models the Scout universal special rule, plus stealth rule to all but terminators and centurions, plus their Jump infantry are able to use their packs in both movement and assault phases with and added bonus of re-rolling failed wounds caused by hammer of wrath.  Wow, all that compared to the furious charge that the BAs get.  It sure looks to me like BA got ripped off in this respect.

 

Secondly, it sure looks like BA have been shorted on number of units available and uniqueness of their army, on top of no new units or flyers like SWs and DAs while the Codex guys get our Stormraven.  Blood Angels unique and exclusive units include (I am not counting HQ or hero/leader type models) Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company Dread & Furioso (although others get ironclad and venerable instead) and the Baal Predator for a total of FIVE if you count the Dreadnoughts.  Now, remember that the BAs are praised for their adherence to the Codex Astartes and the speed of which they adopted the doctrines.  So if we compare the unique units to the Vanilla marine codex what happens?  Standard Codex marines get the following unique units which BAs do not; Honor Guard, Thunderfire Cannons, Centurion Squads of both types, Stormtalon gunships, landspeeder storm, Ironclad dreadnought,  Stalker and Hunter tanks, Legion of the Damned, and Crusader Squads, for a total of 10-11 not counting the many hero/leaders.  So what is the deal?  Also, every unit in the BA codex takes up a separate slot, while Vanilla still get units all over that do not take up slots like Honor guard, Command squads, Techmarines, and bonus leaders like Chronus and Telion. 

 

So what makes Blood Angels unique other than the Death Company?  You might as well title the Codex, "the less powerful and less diverse Ultramarines with Red armor who occasionally send in psychotic Black Armoured expendables".

 

Am I right, am I wrong, did I miss something?  Let me know, but please understand that I will not stop playing or using the BA codex, just that I feel the BAs should have received more love than they did from GW.

[Kilofix]

I don't know.

 

Also being able to get +1I, no or limited scatter DS, Charge on DS Turn and / or no penalties to Disorganized Charges depending on Detachment / Formation used and circumstance is no small deal.

 

I think, if I wanted a CC SM list, I'd still go with the new BA.

[bushman101]

there is a bit more to our codex than just units and chapter tactics.

In my opinion, our psyker powers (sanguinary) is much better than the vanilla ones.

We got good relics, fast vehicles and unique weaponry as well (inferno pistol, glaive encarmine, more access to melta and H flamers)

 

I don't feel shorted, but we do play different

[Bryan Blaire]

It wasn't "your" Stormraven. That was already a jointly shared unit. As far as what makes the BA unique compared to the Codex Marines? I'd say the other four unique things you listed already, along with the fact that they aren't quite Codex Marines...

 

For why they didn't get all the other C:SM toys... Perhaps (as I have said similarly in the DA forum about the DA) it's because the Blood Angels prefer not to fight or use those units. Remember, an army list doesn't display all the ways a Chapter fights, merely the most common method/units it uses.

 

You're basically complaining that the Blood Angels aren't C:SM+1. :rolleyes:

[ThatOneMarshal]

I will tell you this my black templars which are the most assualt oriented chapter tactic would kill for furios charge. all we get is admaninium will which is beyond situational. For combat buffs we get rending and re rolls in challenges and crusader. Well it looks fine and dandy but what if if there is there is no characters in the squad. Crusader squads as a mele squad are pretty bad as a hoarse tau and eldar hard counter. Land raiders are better but a lot of armies still hard counter like grav bikes, blood angels with all their melta, necrons, and eldar/ dark eldar. Blood angels assualt looks so easy in comparison I mean most of the things that want to assualt well they have 12 inches to move and are cheap while if I want a good cc squad I gotta use 500 points. Sorry for the rant but you don't know how much a combat buff is until you don't have it.

[Gaweda]

Less

You might as well title the Codex, "the less powerful and less diverse Ultramarines with Red armor who occasionally send in psychotic Black Armoured expendables".

I would take a single Blood Angel scout marine over a whole squad of smurf tacticals any day! Let the codex marines keep their toys, we want to get in our enemies faces rather than cower behind big guns. Furious charge and extra initiative let me do that wonderfully. I can burn the heretics with my heavy flamer tacticals. They shall be led by the most badass chapter master in 40k excellent maybe for draigo who lets be honest, is probably created from the emperors geneseed. I'll frag cannon the lot of them, and whoever survives shall be bludgeoned by my death company or skewered by the might of the sanguinary guard, lords of the sky. Then as they turn to flee, I'll run them down in my Baal Predators, flames pouring from them and assault cannons pouring the wrath of sanguinius upon them.

 

To me, this codex is gloriously pure blood Angels.

[Morticon]

Fellow Blood Angel players,  I wanted to ask if anyone else who has read and looked at the new codex thinks that Blood Angels have been given the short straw, ripped off, cheated of potential and power in game, or otherwise been given a lack of love from GW compared to other Space Marines. 

 

 

No. 

 

:tu: 

[CaptainLNH]

Kilofix,

 

Are you aware of the conditions each of these other things you have mentioned require?  The +1 initiative from "the Red Thirst" comes only when charging, and only if you first follow the conditions of the detachment, and only for units in that detachment.  The 'limited' or reduced scatter for specific Deep strikes is a 1 in 6 chance on the Warlord traits table, not an automatic by any means. (it was in the previous 5th edition codex, but not anymore).  I cannot find any ability to charge after deep striking in the codex, so I am not sure where you saw that.  I am also not sure what you mean by the "no penalties for disorganized charges" because I cannot find that in the Codex either. 

 

 

Bryan Blaire,

 

I am not complaining because I think the BAs are not C:SM +1, but that instead of being BA = C:SM, they seem to be C:SM -1 or -2

[appiah4]

Hell no. Even tactical heavy flamers make the army unique by themselves.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, look at it this way, C:BA is a single Chapter and some Successors, while C:SM is something like 600+ Chapters, each of them with different methods of fighting involving different selections of units. Therefore C:BA cannot, by most normal logic, equate directly to C:SM, because the concepts behind the two things are not supposed to directly equate.

 

By the logic you presented, C:DA = C:SM -1 or -2 and C:SW = C:SM -1 or -2 as well. This is exactly as it should be.

 

What you should be arguing instead is that to accurately reflect the variations in warfare styles and units in the Chapters and their progeny shown in C:SM, the Chapter Tactics sections should have also included restrictions on units that could be taken by a force using that CT. This would have said up front that any Chapter/Successor = C:SM -1 or -2 as a whole. I could get behind that wholeheartedly.

 

So, C:BA != C:SM because it isn't supposed to.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Kilofix,

 

Are you aware of the conditions each of these other things you have mentioned require? The +1 initiative from "the Red Thirst" comes only when charging, and only if you first follow the conditions of the detachment, and only for units in that detachment. The 'limited' or reduced scatter for specific Deep strikes is a 1 in 6 chance on the Warlord traits table, not an automatic by any means. (it was in the previous 5th edition codex, but not anymore). I cannot find any ability to charge after deep striking in the codex, so I am not sure where you saw that. I am also not sure what you mean by the "no penalties for disorganized charges" because I cannot find that in the Codex either.

 

 

Bryan Blaire,

 

I am not complaining because I think the BAs are not C:SM +1, but that instead of being BA = C:SM, they seem to be C:SM -1 or -2

 

Kilofix is speaking of a formation where you take three storm ravens and everything around them can assualt after deep striking. Also the no penalties for disorganized charge is a flesh tearers formation found white dwarf 46. The first one is found in white dwarf 47. Also you can get the better descend of the angels from Dante though he is a LOW so that puts you at the mercy of titans. I would argue we are the best assault space marine codex. Look at competitive space marine armies the only assault units they use is smash facer. Look at space wolves it's thunder wolf star. Now look at our codex we have death company, sanguinary guard, hell even our assault marines are good. Also looking at our codex we kinda have always been red space marines. And that's better than space wolves I mean they are considered unique and they murder mcmurder murder and herald death wolf on a thunder wolf with the wolf hammer of wolfness.

[Drunken Angel]

Fellow Blood Angel players,  I wanted to ask if anyone else who has read and looked at the new codex thinks that Blood Angels have been given the short straw, ripped off, cheated of potential and power in game, or otherwise been given a lack of love from GW compared to other Space Marines. 

 

 

Am I right, am I wrong, did I miss something?  Let me know, but please understand that I will not stop playing or using the BA codex, just that I feel the BAs should have received more love than they did from GW.

 

BA are in a fine place, we are an assault based army in a shooting meta.  I did not expect BA to change much but we did get a formation that bypasses shooting and allows assault from deep strike, who else got that?  If there is a problem with assault its lack of cheap assault transports thats an Astartes wide codex issue.

Army wide I5 S5 charges are very useful it elevates even a tactical squad to a serious threat. 

Good psychic powers

Powerful psykers

Fast vehicles

Solid HQ's

A wide range of allies/FW units available for example the Sicaran which addresses a lot of our ranged shooting issues

Some very solid infantry and jump pack units.  

Sanguine wing formation has what .... 400 pts of free upgrades for the Vanguard and Sternguard in it?

Death Company are the infantry that Khorne wished he had

Angels spearhead is around 1000ish pts but allows other units arriving with it to assault the turn they deep strike.

I think in competent hands the BA codex is very competitive and in the beer and pretzels group it will be great fun.

Did I say Death Company are awesome.

 

BA will not dominate but they will play as their fluff depicts and still be a dangerous army on the board for anyone to face.

[Noctus Cornix]

The Codex isn't more than a few weeks old and already the 'are we getting shafted' thread is rolling in... I suppose its unavoidable.

 

To be blunt, absolutely not. Aside from a few minute little nitpicks, the Codex is solid without drawing into the realm of overpowered or shirking to underpowered levels. 

 

We have unique Units that no one else has (Sanguinary Guard. Sanguinary Priests. Death Company. Furioso/Death Company Dreads, Librarian Dreads and Baal Predators.) 

 

We have unique wargear that no one else has (Inferno Pistols, Flamer Pistols, Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, Heavy Flamers for tactical squads, frag cannons, magna-grapple, Blood Talons and Blood Chalices )

 

We have a special rule across the entire army that lets us wound most human and xenos enemies on a 2+ for the first round of combat if we charge. 

 

We have our own unique relics, warlord traits and psychic powers. Not to mention the whole slew of unique special characters that are fairly well done and rather useful. 

 

 

What could there possibly be to feel cheated for?

[Kilofix]

The Codex isn't more than a few weeks old and already the 'are we getting shafted' thread is rolling in... I suppose its unavoidable.

 

To be blunt, absolutely not. Aside from a few minute little nitpicks, the Codex is solid without drawing into the realm of overpowered or shirking to underpowered levels. 

 

We have unique Units that no one else has (Sanguinary Guard. Sanguinary Priests. Death Company. Furioso/Death Company Dreads, Librarian Dreads and Baal Predators.) 

 

We have unique wargear that no one else has (Inferno Pistols, Flamer Pistols, Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, Heavy Flamers for tactical squads, frag cannons, magna-grapple, Blood Talons and Blood Chalices )

 

We have a special rule across the entire army that lets us wound most human and xenos enemies on a 2+ for the first round of combat if we charge. 

 

We have our own unique relics, warlord traits and psychic powers. Not to mention the whole slew of unique special characters that are fairly well done and rather useful. 

 

 

What could there possibly be to feel cheated for?

Not to mention Fast vehicles.

 

And options for:

+1I with Baal Strike Force Detachment, or;

No penalty for Disorganized Charges with Flesh Tearers Detachment, or;

+1I and Rage on Charge of 10+ with Flesh Tearers Vanguard Formation, or;

First Turn Reserves + No Scatter DS + Charge on DS with Angels Spearhead Formation, or;

Free Power Weapons and free Combi Weapons with Archangels Formation

 

In fact, I think short of Tyranids, Blood Angels got the largest number of Formations with Special Rules - such that I think BA has the longest straw of the other PA currently.

[knife&fork]

 

What could there possibly be to feel cheated for?

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/eu7zAOb.png?1

 

:p

[Duke Danse Macabre]

In all honesty the only negatives I would take from the codex is the 3 following:

1) Decent of Angels is no longer Army Wide

2) Sanguinary Priest can no longer take Terminator Armour

3) The Army Slots have over stacked Fast Attack and Elites

With those exceptions I'm happy with how things have turned out.

Hell we still have fast moving Vindicators.

Oh yeh...

4) Tycho...

[appiah4]

What could there possibly be to feel cheated for?

http://i.imgur.com/eu7zAOb.png?1

First of all, it's a well known fact that Erasmus Tycho's tears cure cancer, but he never cries.

Second, Brother Cassor is actually currently on honeymoon with Brother Moriar, enjoying his new celebrity status.

Third.. I have no idea what you are talking about, fast razorbacks are leaking oil?

[ServoBadger]

I don't feel we got the short straw. I'm very happy with the new codex, formations, new releases... everything really.

[Noctus Cornix]

The lack of Terminator Sanguinary Priests does make me very sad.

[Karhedron]

The new codex is about 90% of what I wanted to see in the Blood Angels. Yes there are a few niggles (I feel we really should have got the Storm Talon) but if you really are that desperate for units from the Vanilla codex then just take an allied Detachment. You can even paint them the same as the rest of your army and say they are Blood Drinkers (who are a codex Chapter IIRC).

 

Overall I am very pleased with the new codex as it is fluffy enough to represent my vision on BAs well and powerful enough not to get Kerb-stomped in every game. I don't want the most powerful codex in the world, just one that is strong enough to be competitive and fluffy enough to be fun to play.

 

I honestly think that the new codex (combined with the Detachments and Formations in WD and Exterminatus) have made jump pack assault armies viable again which really hasn't been the case since 6th edition came out,

[John_f]

The biggest setback imho is the fact that priest no longer have a bubble. It was expected after all. All in all, the new codex is solid. I think we just have to figure out how to make assault viable again.

[SamaNagol]

I dont think that the 'charging from deep strike' formation is legit tbh. 3 StormRavens and 3 full tacs is a huge tax.

[PowerKlaw]

I don't understand the original comments regarding furious charge and +1I being situational! In the situation in question they are both amazing. They may seem like small bonuses but these small boosts are what puts the BA head and shoulders above other marines in combat. Plus this situation in one that as BA players we are actively trying to achieve :) how can you possibly think that stubborn is better and less situational?

 

As for the raven guard chapter tactics, while I do think they a good (I also play raptors) they don't make for a good assault orientated army. All of the vanilla marine assault units are bulky and therefore gain no benifit from the scout/stealth rule and the jump pack ability still doesn't make assault marines a viable assault unit.

 

Other than popping up as allies here and there my Blood Angels have been on the shelf for nearly 2 years but with this new codex I can't see myself playing anything else for quite some time!

[Finn]

CaptainLNH, if you think the Blood Angels got the short straw, you're obviously not a Dark Angels player. I am one. BA Codex is no less powerful than C:SM and maybe slightly less powerful than C:SW.

[Bartali]

I don't like the BA codex, but then I don't particularly like any of the 7th ed codexes so far. All of them are blander in comparison to their previous versions.

 

GW are now releasing the flavour via seperate detachment/formation rules - you can't really judge a codex on it's own two feet anymore.

The Baal Strike Force detachment is ok with +1I, but puts you into a monobuild. You're also probably better off sourcing your non-jump units from a Codex Space Marine CAD rather than from the BA codex/Baal Strike Force

 

Onus is on GW to keep on top of releasing new detachment/formation rules. If they do they can massively change how an army plays, and breath new life into aging codexes. It's not something they've managed before though - look how long it took them to update Stormshields etc for the 4th ed DA codex.

We shall see I guess.