shandwen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 My thought on this is running the three Stormraven formation, and a detachment with Captain Karleen as HQ, followed by two five man tac squads (heavy flamers) in pods, and fill out the rest to points. Karleen gives the bonuses to reserves to make the first turn roll for the ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Meh, gimmicky at best. Who really cares if MORE Tac squads come on table turn one and can assault? Complete waste. precision drop assault squads and have them assault the turn the deep strike in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This formation can work well, I payled 2 games yesterday as test run for list I bring to event. The one thing about list is stop trying to make it assault list. I know It sounds stupid cause your taking all that stuff for 3 homers so you can get turn 1 charge in place, but even with the specail rule it's not viable for CC list. In the first game I DS my death co to take advangte of the rule and found there wasn't a good target to assault with them. Ended up finishing off a IG blob and got stuck out in the open. 3 raven and 30 marines can unload a lot of fire power. To point where DS in some cc units might be wasted. The speed of this formation is what drew me to it. With the size of raven and 10 man sq you have a good size foot print. Effecting element momvement and and take obj on the first turn. They abilty to control the bord and dicate the movment phase for the other player is nice. Not to mention now they have 3 Ravens and 30 marines rather close to them and have to deal with asap. Don't get me wrong this isn't a win all formation there list of there that can and will wreck this with no problem, and there list that will struggle greatly. This formation has merits in 1850 games for all shooty force in higher levels than DS in CC units becomes fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I assumed GW designed the formation for the simple purpose of getting people to buy more storm ravens. I mean, how many people own 3 (I have 2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't really believe it is a first turn assault mechanism. I believe it is about pin point second turn DS on the far side of the table with as much as you can get on turn 2. One of the biggest issues of danger close DS is that you risk losing/delaying the unit to scatter. This formation gets rid of that. Being able to no scatter DS then assault your choppy units in your opponents backfield will ruin just about anyone's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mippie Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Well two things on this item: 1: the model equipped has to be on the table, not embarked on a transport (because they don't count as on the table when embarked - unless you can point me to area in the brb which counteracts this?) 2: these ravens aren't on the table turn one...you have to roll for these reserves...and does it count because all reserves are rolled and arrive at the same time? Cheers Mippie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 1) up for debate. I tend to agree. 2) the trianglation part doesn't have the "beginning of turn" clause. The rule is not tied to the homer...just the model with the homer. And you get to choose order that models come from reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As far as I understand the rules, I think the formation makes an exception to the rule of assaulting directly after deep striking. However, it does NOT make any exceptions to charging being denied on first turn (I believe it was mentioned explicitly somewhere in the rules book). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The Flyers can be on turn 1. That's a caveat in the formation, you get to roll from Turn 1. The beacons don't need to be on the table at the start of the turn to be able to assault from them because you declare an assault at the start of the Assault phase. If the beacons are there and in range, you could charge. You don't even need the Tacs out of the flyers because ranges are indeed measured from the Hull as per BRB and ranged abilities' effects. If you zoom the flyers on across the table, bring down something via Deep Strike Reserve within 12" (which wouldn't get the no scatter because you aren't actually there at the start of the turn when Deep Strikes happen) you could indeed get a 1st turn charge Some issues though: Do models embarked in Transports which arrive from Deep Strike Reserve count as themselves arriving from Deep Strike Reserve? This rules query is already going on elsewhere as players try and take Fast Attack Drop Pods and embark Legion Of The Damned units inside them for a Turn 1 Deep Strike. I can see this being useful for a turn 2 assault with Sanguinary Guard or Death Company. It's a very expensive formation though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 you don't have to be on the board for a turn to get the no scatter DS. The auger triangulation rule says nothing about having to be on the board for a turn. That is the rule you are using:). It has nothing to do with the rule for teleport homers. units embarked on a transport that is in deep strike reserve also count as being in deep strike reserves. legion of the damned won't be able to assault as they are not Blood angels faction, easy peasy. turn two reserve assaults add yet another layer of failure points. not only can you fail the first roll to get the ravens on you also have a round of your ravens getting shot down AND...:)....you can fail the reserve roll for turn two.....but wait .... theres more!!!, you can't even overwhelm interceptor shots by all coming in turn one, they get to intercept your planes and then also your turn 2 jumpers.....which land in a lovely clump unlike from pods. I wrote an article on how, really not great, the formation is. https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/01/a-different-perspective-on-the-spearhead-formationof-dooommm-by-pascal-roggen/ it's not going to win you a GT, it's not going to win new friends in a casual game[oops I failed my first reserve rolls so no ravens, I concede....play again?] It is cool in Large points battles were lots of crazy is going on anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mippie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think perhaps you have overlooked something here (i may be wrong) Firstly the formation isn't 1020points (the homer is free - saving you a godly 42 points :-P ) Secondly those "useless" tactical squads have Objective Secured, something the rest of the Baal Strike force dreams of Thirdly you can take fortications So add a comms relay to allow rerolls in every turn and it sounds quite attractive Just hide two min scout squads with camo cloaks and pray lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 you don't have to be on the board for a turn to get the no scatter DS. The auger triangulation rule says nothing about having to be on the board for a turn. That is the rule you are using:). It has nothing to do with the rule for teleport homers. units embarked on a transport that is in deep strike reserve also count as being in deep strike reserves. legion of the damned won't be able to assault as they are not Blood angels faction, easy peasy. turn two reserve assaults add yet another layer of failure points. not only can you fail the first roll to get the ravens on you also have a round of your ravens getting shot down AND.......you can fail the reserve roll for turn two.....but wait .... theres more!!!, you can't even overwhelm interceptor shots by all coming in turn one, they get to intercept your planes and then also your turn 2 jumpers.....which land in a lovely clump unlike from pods. I wrote an article on how, really not great, the formation is. https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/01/a-different-perspective-on-the-spearhead-formationof-dooommm-by-pascal-roggen/ it's not going to win you a GT, it's not going to win new friends in a casual game[oops I failed my first reserve rolls so no ravens, I concede....play again?] It is cool in Large points battles were lots of crazy is going on anyway. The issue with the no scatter triangulation is this: Deep Strike Reserve happens at the same time. All units appear simultaneously. You cannot use triangulation to not scatter because when you come on the board it is technically not there. This is the problem with the 40k turn sequence and lack of 'order of operations'. Could you roll reserves for your Ravens, bring them on, zoom them forward then place your drop pods after and claim you are benefiting from their area of effect? It's not technically covered in the letter of the rules. Regarding the Legion Of The Damned, I wasnt implying they could assault, I was highlighting the pre-existing debate as to whether they can embark on a Drop Pod at all because their rules state they must enter play via Deep Strike Reserve. If you check Dakka and other forums there's pages and pages of debate on it. Whilst the units inside the drop pod are indeed placed in deep strike reserve, the actual models do not deploy via deep strike. Interceptor isn't too prevalent these days in the meta. Especially when coupled with Skyfire. With regards to turn 2 Interceptor, you can also always take the Angels Wing relic on a Priest in a unit of Sanguinary Guard to effectively nullify Tau Interceptor fire. But of course this all adds up in an already expensive gimmicky list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As far as I understand the rules, I think the formation makes an exception to the rule of assaulting directly after deep striking. However, it does NOT make any exceptions to charging being denied on first turn (I believe it was mentioned explicitly somewhere in the rules book). There has never been such a rule in recent 40k. It would be nice if people read the rule book instead restating this. samanagol, read the rule for the formation. If you land 12" from two models with a homer you get no scatter and may charge the turn you arrive. Pascalnz, that is up for debate. It is no way certain that you measure from the hull. Also the deep strike reserve thing is kinda sticky. Further, no one is claiming that the formation is the bestest thing in the world. It is an interesting fluff formation that can be pretty deviating. But there is a reason it is a formation and not a detachment, it's not meant to be taken alone. In fact, if you run battlefirged you can't take it alone. So that means there will most likely be other units in your army that can/will start on the table. It comes down to a standard risk versus reward choice for the player. Do you want to risk not coming down early for the very real reward of pin-point DS that you can assault from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Wrong Samanagol, they do not arrive simultaneously. They arrive in the order the owning player chooses. They may all arrive at the start of the movement phase, but the most defiantly don't arrive simultaneously Rules function as soon as the model concerned is on the table, unles we are told otherwise.If the trianglation rules stated that they had to be on the table at the start of the turn then you might have a point. They don't, thus don't. Your meta way have lots of intercepter...mine doesn't. Don't take your local game group as the standard of the entire community. In fact don't take what the interwebz says about meta as anything more than paper generaling. I've seen "crappy combos/units" dominate in my local meta counter to what the interwebz said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 page 80 in the BRB "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit(except for shooting), this range is measured from the vehicles hull" I don't think they could be more clear about it. there's a reason they had to faq the KFF and the power field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 To me it sounds like RAW you can assault out of drop pods on turn 1. Whether that was the intention is moot until/unless they FAQ it. GW need to hire a lawyer to read their rules. They may know what the intention of a particular rule was but without watertight wording, that is not worth the paper it is printed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Funny, the rules you quote give us permission to measure to a unit embarked on a transport. Yet the rules for Triangulation tell us to measure to the model with the homer. Do you see any permission to measure to a specific model? I sure don't. Look, this point has been hashed in many other threads lets keep that discussion in those threads. I agree that it is a weak argument, but it is a valid one. Adding a large amount of area to an already large area is shady at best. Same with the drop pod issue. I tend to go with allowing it, but do not believe it is the intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettanker Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 To me it sounds like RAW you can assault out of drop pods on turn 1. Whether that was the intention is moot until/unless they FAQ it. GW need to hire a lawyer to read their rules. They may know what the intention of a particular rule was but without watertight wording, that is not worth the paper it is printed on. Only if said lawyer speaks in plain English. We don't need rules written in legalese, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 the rule says "involving the embarked unit"....pretty sure the sergeant is involved in that unit...no? yet again, why faq the power field or KFF then? both of them can be part of a unit inside a transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 ...I said Interceptor isn't too prevalent. lol Stop skim reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsijben Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 GW need to hire a lawyer to read their rules. They may know what the intention of a particular rule was but without watertight wording, that is not worth the paper it is printed on. Or just have a beta-group selected from YMDC/OR-fora to read the rules. They can find the unclear stuff and GW could take another look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Pascalnz, and there is the meat of the disagreement that has been hashed over in multiple threads. One side claims as you do, the other claims that the rules doesn't 'involve the unit" bit just the model with the homer...and we do not have permission to measure to a single model in a unit only the unit itself. Small distinction but a valid one. We can go over this point all day long (just like the other threads) but I doubt we will get anywhere. I would just prefer we didn't. I personally don't believe the intent is to allow the tac squad to remain in the Ravens while triangleating and the model with the homer should be in the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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