Deathstorm Data Sheets

[MadGreek]

So, I think I know the answer for this, but would like confirmation.  The data sheets in Deathstorm have a unit of DC as troops and a DC Dread as a troops choice.  Does that mean I can use them in any game of 40K as troops?  Also, since regular DC are no longer troops there is no longer the need for the restriction that DC cannot claim objectives - since that restriction is gone, I assume the DC company above can claim objectives like any other troops?

[Quixus]

Correct on both counts. However the units must be fielded exactly as in Deathstorm, so no dedicated drop pod for Cassor, and no extra marines or different equipment in Raphen's DC.

[Xenith]

Yes. Think of those units as additions to the codex - Their own unique entries, ass opposed to the generic versions that you can modify.

[t4play]

So no dedicated transport, but can they ride in a raven?

[t4play]

.

[Quixus]

So no dedicated transport, but can they ride in a raven?

Yup. The dread could also get a Lucius pattern drop pod. Too bad we do not get FA drop pods like the puppies

[MadMek83]

 

So no dedicated transport, but can they ride in a raven?

Yup. The dread could also get a Lucius pattern drop pod. Too bad we do not get FA drop pods like the puppies

 

Really... in my Codex Drop Pod is in Fast Section with Fast Attack Symbol on it...

[Toomanyprojects]

Now I have a different opinion on that I'm afraid. The rule book says that where there are contradictions, the most recent publication takes precedence. Therefore I would say that all DC have to be elites and that they can claim objectives. My personal view on it, and it wouldn't stop me playing a game in any case. Have fun with it :)

[Red-beard]

Now I have a different opinion on that I'm afraid. The rule book says that where there are contradictions, the most recent publication takes precedence. Therefore I would say that all DC have to be elites and that they can claim objectives. My personal view on it, and it wouldn't stop me playing a game in any case. Have fun with it

There is no "contradiction". One publication contains rules for "Death Company" and "Death Company Dreadnoughts", generic units that can select upgrades etc. The other publication contains rules for "Raphen's Death Company" and "Cassor the Damned", two specific units that have a specific load out and unique rules. One publication does not replace the other, they are contain different units w/ different rules/restritions.

For example, "Death Company" units have no character models in the unit, whereas "Raphen's Death Company" does have a character model in the unit that can make/accept challenges.

Also, note that the formation in Deathstorm must be comprised of "Raphen's Death Company" and not generic "Death Company", another reason that these units must be considered as separate (the same goes for "Cassor the Damned" versus a generic "Death Company Dreadnought"). If what you were saying were true, you could run the Deathstorm formation with any generic DC unit, which is clearly not the case.

Your interpretation is implying that DC had 5E codex rules for years and then a few weeks ago GW updated DC to a new ruleset for a period of 7 days before then releasing new 7E codex rules that trump the 7 day old 7E campaign rules.....that reasoning doesn't even make sense from a RAI standpoint, much less a RAW one.

[tsijben]

Now I have a different opinion on that I'm afraid. The rule book says that where there are contradictions, the most recent publication takes precedence. Therefore I would say that all DC have to be elites and that they can claim objectives. My personal view on it, and it wouldn't stop me playing a game in any case. Have fun with it

All DC-dreads are Elites.

But the named DC-Dread called Cassor is a Troop-choice.

In the same way Chaplains are HQ, but the named Chaplain called 'Lemartes' is an Elite-choice.

Or how Ork Warbosses are HQ, though the named Warboss 'Ghazhgull' is a LoW-choice.

[Toomanyprojects]

Now I have a different opinion on that I'm afraid. The rule book says that where there are contradictions, the most recent publication takes precedence. Therefore I would say that all DC have to be elites and that they can claim objectives. My personal view on it, and it wouldn't stop me playing a game in any case. Have fun with it

There is no "contradiction". One publication contains rules for "Death Company" and "Death Company Dreadnoughts", generic units that can select upgrades etc. The other publication contains rules for "Raphen's Death Company" and "Cassor the Damned", two specific units that have a specific load out and unique rules. One publication does not replace the other, they are contain different units w/ different rules/restritions.

For example, "Death Company" units have no character models in the unit, whereas "Raphen's Death Company" does have a character model in the unit that can make/accept challenges".

Also, note that the formation in Deathstorm must be comprised of "Raphen's Death Company" and not generic "Death Company", another reason that these units must be considered as separate (the same goes for "Cassor the Damned" versus a generic "Death Company Dreadnought"). If what you were saying were true, you could run the Deathstorm formation with any generic DC unit, which is clearly not the case.

Your interpretation is implying that DC had 5E codex rules for years and then a few weeks ago GW updated DC to a new ruleset for a period of 7 days before then releasing new 7E codex rules that trump the 7 day old 7E campaign rules.....that reasoning doesn't even make sense from a RAI standpoint, much less a RAW one.

The view I take on it is that GW couldn't exacty give away new rules/force org for the most iconic BA unit the week before the new codex came out, so they made a data sheet showing the models occupying their old force org slot.

In my opinion, the rules on the data sheets are fine for play within the death storm campaign or with your opponents permission in a friendly game. I personally feel that if you want to field DC or DC dreads then go with the codex rules alone

[Joasht]

Now I have a different opinion on that I'm afraid. The rule book says that where there are contradictions, the most recent publication takes precedence. Therefore I would say that all DC have to be elites and that they can claim objectives. My personal view on it, and it wouldn't stop me playing a game in any case. Have fun with it

There is no "contradiction". One publication contains rules for "Death Company" and "Death Company Dreadnoughts", generic units that can select upgrades etc. The other publication contains rules for "Raphen's Death Company" and "Cassor the Damned", two specific units that have a specific load out and unique rules. One publication does not replace the other, they are contain different units w/ different rules/restritions.

For example, "Death Company" units have no character models in the unit, whereas "Raphen's Death Company" does have a character model in the unit that can make/accept challenges".

Also, note that the formation in Deathstorm must be comprised of "Raphen's Death Company" and not generic "Death Company", another reason that these units must be considered as separate (the same goes for "Cassor the Damned" versus a generic "Death Company Dreadnought"). If what you were saying were true, you could run the Deathstorm formation with any generic DC unit, which is clearly not the case.

Your interpretation is implying that DC had 5E codex rules for years and then a few weeks ago GW updated DC to a new ruleset for a period of 7 days before then releasing new 7E codex rules that trump the 7 day old 7E campaign rules.....that reasoning doesn't even make sense from a RAI standpoint, much less a RAW one.

The view I take on it is that GW couldn't exacty give away new rules/force org for the most iconic BA unit the week before the new codex came out, so they made a data sheet showing the models occupying their old force org slot.

In my opinion, the rules on the data sheets are fine for play within the death storm campaign or with your opponents permission in a friendly game. I personally feel that if you want to field DC or DC dreads then go with the codex rules alone

There's always a possibility that your view is wrong. I say this without malice or intent to insult, but I find it fairly unusual that this is even a point of contention.

Why would the Deathstorm data sheets not work the same way as every other data sheet in existence? Unless there is a line in the rules that we missed, specifically stating how they are campaign-specific, your opinion holds no ground.

[Bryan Blaire]

The data sheets in the campaign boxes are stand alone, just like all other data sheets are. They are not overruled by a Codex, and if you want to say they are, then quote the specific rule in the rule book that says this.

[tsijben]

Quite right.

"Codex" is just a source, that doesn't make their datasheets any more valid than others.

What matters is the datestamp and whether something overwrites something else.

Cassor the Damned and a Death Company Dreadnought are two different things.

Death Company Squad and Raphen's Death Company are also different things.

 

Personally I would never play Raphen's Death Company because it's too expensive, it has too many special weapons and guns.

My optimal configuration for 5 models is more than 50 points cheaper!

[Captain Antiochus]

The view I take on it is that GW couldn't exacty give away new rules/force org for the most iconic BA unit the week before the new codex came out, so they made a data sheet showing the models occupying their old force org slot.

In my opinion, the rules on the data sheets are fine for play within the death storm campaign or with your opponents permission in a friendly game. I personally feel that if you want to field DC or DC dreads then go with the codex rules alone

I take it you don't have Deathstorm? If you do then you would notice they updated the stat lines ( WS4 instead of WS5 ) as well for these characters and that Raphen even has 3 attacks base instead of 2 and has a Infantry (Character) unit type for himself. GW intended to reward the players who spent money to allow them to have 2 DC troop choices still. Yeah, I would rather Raphen have a bolter instead of a bolt pistol, but he isn't set up that way.

 

They also adjusted the points value accordingly before the new codex dropped. They obviously wanted this formation to be force org.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, G dubbya also removed the rule of them as non-scoring units before the codex dropped.

[Red-beard]

Yeah, GW updated all the stats and rules for these models to the 7E codex rules. They also added Furious charge to the Terminators, for example. 

 

So the position that GW "didn't want to divulge the new rules a week before the codex came out" doesn't really hold water. 

[Xenith]

The view I take on it is that GW couldn't exacty give away new rules/force org for the most iconic BA unit the week before the new codex came out, so they made a data sheet showing the models occupying their old force org slot.

 

 

While entitled to it, your view is factually incorrect.

 

GW didnt give them away. You had to buy a 70 quid box set to get the rules to use those units. All are game legal. The deathstorm book says so. Exterminatus even says that you are allowd to use Karlaen.