Aggressiv and defensiv Inquisition-GK combo

[angrom]

Hi,

As I'm digging the different possibilities of combo between the the inquisition codex and the Grey knight codex

2 formations picked my curiosity.

Both are melee combo and are cheap and effective at least to draw most of the ennemie's attention and give some breath for our other units.

1) Offensiv:  1 GK librarian with sanctic in a henchmen unit composed of 1 priest, (for the save re-roll in melee) 1 psyker with divination for the primaris (re-roll failed hit) , 2 crusaders (in front line to absorb most hit during the ennemie's shooting phase before charging with an incredible 2++ save!! and all others as assassins   (so it give a unit with 4++ save that can be re-roll in melee and a serious impact in combat, (all power weapon , high init , high CS)

2) Deffensive: this one is really nasty and i feel like barely legit.  1 GK librarian, 1 priest, 1 psyker just like above and all others as crusaders (this is a little bit more expensive but it is a unit with 2++ save!! and can re-roll save in melee !!!! (so a unit that can pin forever anything in the game, but lack a punch).

Have you tried any of these combos?, do they work?

Also by the way i see in the assassin profil that they have 2 attack and equiped with 2 power weapon (the profil take in account the 2 power weapon? or does it mean that i can add one more attack on their profil for 2 melee weapon?)

 

[Everon]

The offensive works on a libby with div term squad and stern for a 3++ squad and still packs a punch. 2++ is nice but if it lacks any thing to make it worth shooting at people wont unless its the only thing left

[Zeratul29]

If Assasins and Cruaders still had Power WEAPONS and not power swords(which they currently have in the updated Inq Dex), they would be Soooo much better. But now that's 12 models I'll never use again

[angrom]

@Zeratul29:  I don't really see how Power weapons and power sword are so different? Power sword are still AP3 which is exactly what most of our unit are equipped with and do the job with medium to low protected enemies  (Am i missing something?). (the libbi and the priest are here with AP2 weapon to bring more penetration) also i'm talking about a really cheap unit (15 pts per model) nothing compared to a termi unit.

 

Also Compared to a termi unit combo sure the save is almost the same but the big advantage come from the priest power allowing you to re-roll failed saves for the unit (which double their survivability) you can only get that with a Henchmen unit.

So i still don't understand why these units are so put aside.

 

What about the assassin attacks is it 2 or 3 ?

[Zeratul29]

Because my old unit was 6 Assasins, 5 crusaders and either a techmarine with all the nades and stuff, all the crusaders had axes to mitigate the str 3 to str 4, then I had all the Assasins with sword/axe combo, so you still got +1 attack while being able to deal with both 2+ and 3+ or worse saves, couple with hammerhand and rad grenades and psychotroke.

 

You had a unit with 24 attacks at I6, hitting on 3's most of the time, and killing anything but a 2+ on 2s! Then factor in another 10 str 5 ap 2 attacks hitting on 4's and two servo harness hits also or 36 ap 2 attacks total pretty much took care of everything plus the stormshields soaked up any wounds the unit took.

 

Tell me that unit doesn't sound amazing.

[angrom]

Well it surely does sounds amazing but that is one of the reason old GK codex was considered so broken and got such a big Nerf.

But considering that almost all 40k units have been affected the same way about energetic penetration (probably to bring back interest about terminator unit and make them a little more durable than paper) and now the time when you could have a 40+ ap2 attack is behind don't you think that assassin are still a really good cost value?

compared to others army options ?

[Zeratul29]

Well I'd say they're still good, just don't let a unit with 2+ get near them, they should be assault from a raven to a unit of your choosing

[Zeratul29]

They're also kind of a glass cannon assault unit. Plus really mobile armies will kill it after one turn

[Captain Coolpants]

Assassins get the extra attack yes.

Seems nobody likes to acknowledge you.

You only ever NOT include extra attacks or bonuses when it specifically says the "bonuses have been included in the profile above" or something..

 

So 3 attacks standard. 4 on Le charge!

 

 

And last edition I tried a squad with a psyker xenos inquisitor with hammerhand and rad nades (was an epic combo)

And a squad of 8 assassins and 3 crusaders.

 

And threw them out of a stormraven.

 

Killed off a whole nurgle biker squad, including a nurgle biker Lord in 1 single turn! I just declined the challenge with my inquisitor so the Lord could also be killed haha.

 

 

I always struggled HARD with that nurgle bike squad, always used to wreak me. But I only used that assassin rad nade hammerhand combo once because of how effective it was.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

1) Offensiv:  1 GK librarian with sanctic in a henchmen unit composed of 1 priest, (for the save re-roll in melee) 1 psyker with divination for the primaris (re-roll failed hit) , 2 crusaders (in front line to absorb most hit during the ennemie's shooting phase before charging with an incredible 2++ save!! and all others as assassins   (so it give a unit with 4++ save that can be re-roll in melee and a serious impact in combat, (all power weapon , high init , high CS)

 

Several issues. Firstly, Henchmen can't Deepstrike, so you'll need either a Raven or Allied drop pod to deliver them into enemy lines (I'd probably go Raven, as you can't risk being stranded in front of enemy guns for an entire Shooting phase). Secondly, your invul stacking is fun, but you have to remember they're only T3 (and the Librarian gets lowered to T3 as well, due to majority Toughness rules). T3 doesn't last long under any kind of attention, just ask Eldar or Tau. 

 

The major problem is that a squad of Terminators is gonna cost about the same and be far more flexible and resiliant. Melee Henchmen builds are kinda eh really, as reaching melee is a pipe dream against some lists and generally unusual (it happens, but you'll be in a lot of shootouts prior to getting a successful charge). Overwatch is hell on T3 dudes, all it takes is a lucky wound and a bad save and you'll fail you charge roll. 

2) Deffensive: this one is really nasty and i feel like barely legit.  1 GK librarian, 1 priest, 1 psyker just like above and all others as crusaders (this is a little bit more expensive but it is a unit with 2++ save!! and can re-roll save in melee !!!! (so a unit that can pin forever anything in the game, but lack a punch).

 

Why do you care about pinning a unit in place? This isn't chess, this is 40k. Things die a lot, and you generally win by dying slower and smarter than your opponent. Unless its multi-wound infantry or an MC, you should consider the unit expendable. Infantry do not last long these days, even Terminators are pretty balanced by their T4 and low model count. If an enemy unit is vapour, they can't ever be a problem again (barring weird fringe 'regen unit' abilities). If you wanna build a list that refuses to die, Knights are the wrong choice. We're Marine durable. 

[angrom]

@Darius  I agree and i disagree at the same time.

For the offensiv it is true that their T3 and 4++ save won't last long against saturation and they don't have deep strike.

However even deep striking unit have to bear a whole shooting phase at short range before being able to charge plus as my librarian will be there, there is 2/3 chance to get the gate from sanctic giving them more mobility. Also that's why I think to add 2-3 crusader in the first line to absorb most of the shots.

It's not like i expect from them everything this is not a death star but after all all shots directed to them is less shots to the Termi or Purifier somewhere the other player will have to make a choice.

 

For the defensiv being able to pin a unit the whole game with a cheap unit can most of the time make the difference between a win and a loose. A lot of players love to build their strategy on 1 or 2 really strong unit. If you manage to block these units (usually between 250 to 400 pts with a cheap unit) you immediately take the advantage and you can deal with the rest of his army more easily.

But that's true that mobility is one of our greatest weaknesses

[Quozzo]

If the librarian is attached to the henchmen then hopefully he will get hammerhand (can't believe i just said that) then that will increase the squads toughness to 5 and should shrug off more shots.

[angrom]

Hammerhand increase Strengh not toughness but that is still true that it is part of the idea ti use hammerhand on them to increase their impact

[Quozzo]

xD maybe he could fish for one in another discipline, not sure if any increase toughness tbh.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@Darius  I agree and i disagree at the same time.

For the offensiv it is true that their T3 and 4++ save won't last long against saturation and they don't have deep strike.

However even deep striking unit have to bear a whole shooting phase at short range before being able to charge plus as my librarian will be there, there is 2/3 chance to get the gate from sanctic giving them more mobility. Also that's why I think to add 2-3 crusader in the first line to absorb most of the shots.

It's not like i expect from them everything this is not a death star but after all all shots directed to them is less shots to the Termi or Purifier somewhere the other player will have to make a choice.

 

Well the DCA have 5+ invul, the Crusaders have a 3+ invul. Relying on 'Gate' isn't a viable strategy, take a Raven or drop pod. 

 

The thing is, the kind of firepower that removes Henchmen isn't going to worry Terminators or even Purifiers as much. Basic lasguns and bolters can take care of Henchmen, T3 is easy to melt even with solid armour save (just ask any Sister player). 

For the defensiv being able to pin a unit the whole game with a cheap unit can most of the time make the difference between a win and a loose. A lot of players love to build their strategy on 1 or 2 really strong unit. If you manage to block these units (usually between 250 to 400 pts with a cheap unit) you immediately take the advantage and you can deal with the rest of his army more easily.

But that's true that mobility is one of our greatest weaknesses

 

And I'll reiterate, 40k isn't chess. If an enemy unit is dead, it's not coming back. 'Pinning', both the rule and the tactic, isn't a viable strategy. Too many units ignore both with impunity. You're better off focusing on efficiently killing enemy units, while dying slower than your opponents force. Instead of building some janky Henchmen unit to pin down a Riptide in melee, you could've taken a DK or Terminator squad to just vape it. 

 

If the librarian is attached to the henchmen then hopefully he will get hammerhand (can't believe i just said that) then that will increase the squads toughness to 5 and should shrug off more shots. 

 

 

Wat

[Bionicman]

 

 

If the librarian is attached to the henchmen then hopefully he will get hammerhand (can't believe i just said that) then that will increase the squads toughness to 5 and should shrug off more shots. 

 

 

Wat

 

 

No need to pick on someone who was already corrected.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No need to pick on someone who was already corrected.

 

I'm not, I'm merely expressing surprise Quozzo could think that. 'Hammerhand' has never affected Toughness, and even the name kinda gives you an indication of what it does. 

[Quozzo]

A minor lapse in concentration with only a major dint to my dignity. I shall repent for my sins.

 

http://whec-assets-live.s3.amazonaws.com/2014/06/35850_6d973f267fbf32bbefcaab2badec28b0.jpg

[EnterRehab]

xD maybe he could fish for one in another discipline, not sure if any increase toughness tbh.

 

Go for invisibility with the Librarian.  Forgo toughness in place of being unhittable by guns and Melee.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Go for invisibility with the Librarian.  Forgo toughness in place of being unhittable by guns and Melee.

 

Tau can use markerlights to boost back up to normal BS against you. Not to mention, 'Invis' is Mastery 2. Assuming you even pull it off (even with 6 dice I've flubbed it before), they can Deny it so long as they get two 6's. Throwing all their dispel at it can and will happen. It's why I've gone off Telepathy entirely, I don't think it works for us. 

[casb1965]

I used a similar unit to your offensive one in a 400pt game a few weeks back.

 

My unit was 4 DCA , 1 Psyker , 1 priest , 1 warrior with flamer all packaged in a Chimera.

 

Playing against Space Marines it rolled down the flank unloaded and then charged a unit of Sternguard and chewed them to bits.

 

Why the flamer? Well that was protection for if the unit got charged :)

[EnterRehab]

 

Go for invisibility with the Librarian.  Forgo toughness in place of being unhittable by guns and Melee.

 

Tau can use markerlights to boost back up to normal BS against you. Not to mention, 'Invis' is Mastery 2. Assuming you even pull it off (even with 6 dice I've flubbed it before), they can Deny it so long as they get two 6's. Throwing all their dispel at it can and will happen. It's why I've gone off Telepathy entirely, I don't think it works for us. 

 

 

Invisibility doesn't effect target BS.. It makes the shooting army follow snapshot special rule.   How do markerlights fix this?

 

Edit: There was a FAQ put out on the rulebook that says markerlights cant effect snapshot BS.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Edit: There was a FAQ put out on the rulebook that says markerlights cant effect snapshot BS. 

 

Link?

[EnterRehab]

 

Edit: There was a FAQ put out on the rulebook that says markerlights cant effect snapshot BS. 

 

Link?

 

 

The link I found referenced 6th edition.  I thought it was referencing the 6th edition codex- but it may be referencing the 6th edition rulebook FAQs.  Can't access blacklibrary from work, so I'll investigate this evening to be sure.  Will update this post when I get the relevant (or irrelevant) data.

 

Also wanted to add this:

 

Per the Tau  codex, the unit shooting can't use their markerlights.. So the squad shooting markerlights is still shooting at BS1.  They still follow the snapshot rules for blast/template weapons.. Mathematically, 1/6th of the shots should succeed.  How many shots are they wasting to get markerlights on a unit, then have to blow an entirely other units shooting phase.

 

It's 4 points per 1 fully upgraded markerlight, which is pretty hefty if you're bringing 1 per model.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Per the Tau  codex, the unit shooting can't use their markerlights.. So the squad shooting markerlights is still shooting at BS1.  They still follow the snapshot rules for blast/template weapons.. Mathematically, 1/6th of the shots should succeed.  How many shots are they wasting to get markerlights on a unit, then have to blow an entirely other units shooting phase.

 

So? Pathfinders and Marker Drones don't care. They'll spam every marker they have into your Deathstar anyway, then start boosting. Also, you forget the broken Support 'O combo, where you put a Command XV8 with re-rolls and a drone controller attached to a cloud of Marker Drones. They normally hit things on a 2+ with re-rolls, and even when Snap Shooting it's still a 1/3 chance to land a marker hit. 

The link I found referenced 6th edition.  I thought it was referencing the 6th edition codex- but it may be referencing the 6th edition rulebook FAQs.  Can't access blacklibrary from work, so I'll investigate this evening to be sure.  Will update this post when I get the relevant (or irrelevant) data.

 

I've already checked dude. There is nothing in the Tau or main rulebook FAQ in the current 7th edition versions. You're just gonna have to deal with the clear writing in the Tau codex, which states you can boost Snap Shots using marker hits.