A Dark Side for every Chapter?

[Filius]

Hi there,

 

I'm still bending my thoughts around an (some) own Chapter(s). There's this Point in the Guide to DIY "Don’t claim your marines are nice" that keeps me thinking …

 

Most of the official Chapters are not only not nice, but do have an real dark side. Blood Angels are Vampires, Space Wolves are Werewolves, Imperial Fists are proud beyond reason, Ultramarines are Buerocrats, Black Templars are regligous Fantatics, Dark Angels have Traitors among them, White Scars and Salamanders maim themselves and the Corax of the Ravenguard played Frankenstein, in order to save his Legion. And so on.

 

Sooo … should a "Dark Side" be part of every DIY-IA?

Or the other way round: Are the "good" Chapters (offical and DIY) which lack a dark side?

[simison]

Nope. There are other ways of adding grimdark without twisting or loading up on character flaws. Example, Salamanders.

[Bryan Blaire]

Think about how Marines are made: they are adolescent boys who are chosen for some kind of martialistic instincts or talents, sometimes involving selection contests where killing other children is totally acceptable (or at least beating the snot out of them, etc.), and they are then removed totally from their families from then on, never again to have human contact except in the form of Chapter serfs until they have completed their time advancing to the Scout squads. They are hypnotically adjusted to some extent, with some trigger words implanted according different texts, inducted into their Chapter cults, trained in the art of war (and only the art of war) in a fashion that likely makes boot camp/early enlistment training in a modern military look like a day care center for a period of at least four years, probably more like six to ten years. They are also surgically altered in numerous procedures over periods of years and then their bodies are distorted further by the implantation of organs found in no human body to specifically alter them to something other than human. Their emotions themselves are impacted in some fashion by techniques designed specifically to root out and kill off feelings and triggers of the human fear response, which likely alters other emotional patterns as well - since much of human emotionality seems connected.

 

I think the best yet could describe them as emotionally would be "detached", which wouldn't lend it self to humans viewing them as nice. They are likely not all frothing at the mouth maniacs, but they aren't touchy-feely humanocentric do-gooder Supermen either.

[Lucien Eilam]

Nope. There are other ways of adding grimdark without twisting or loading up on character flaws. Example, Salamanders.

 

The Salamanders' dark side is all those bleeding apostrophes. None more dark.

[Filius]

@simison: Yeah. I stumbled across the Salamanders too. Their connection to and involvement as Space Marines in their Families and the Society of their Homeplanet, as well as their protective behaiviour for imperial Citizens is truelly unique among Space Marines, and it surely gives them a more humanistic touch. Buuut … I think, with the ritual Burning and Cicatrizing (hope that's the right word for adding scars to yourself), as well as their grim iconography, they do have a dark side, even if it's not as grimdark as the one of other chapters.

 

But on the other hand: Do I understand you right, that you do think, that there should be something grimdark in every Chapter, even if it's not a "dark side" or a basic character flaw?

Do you mean something like the Curse of the Lamenters?

 

@Bryan Blaire: Yeah. A friend of mine once said: "Space Marines are Nazis". And although he's not right with that, he has a point there. A Space Marine, by definition, is already a grimdark Person. But I wonderd, why GW just added so many extreme Flaws to their main Legions/Chapters, and wether this has become some kind of must have.

 

Or on other words: When looking at my DIY-IA, there is certainly missing something directly grimdark, and I do miss that in some of the IA in the Liber also. I might be just a personal perspective, but that's exactly the reason why I ask here: To find out, if I'm not the only one.

 

 

Thanks a lot!

[Conn Eremon]

This is Warhammer 40k, so inserting a healthy dose of grimdark is rather expected. However, it can be inserted in many different ways beyond giving your Chapter a dark side. Using my own DIYs as examples, here are a few ways you can try to grim up your Chapter:

 

Start with your home world. My Angels Penumbral are a religious brotherhood, and recruits from a thoroughly devoted home world. However, the Chapter's religious intolerance (which is actually its dark side) has forced it to clash on multiple occasions with certain evolutions of their home world's faiths. To the point where they have begun to see their home as a source of corruption that may be in need of a thorough cleansing. My Iron Hunters felt that the native populations of their granted home world were inadequate to their needs, and the world itself as shackles dragging them down. So they took what they wanted of their world, and left it forever. A Chapter's home world can have as strong or as weak an influence as you want. Look to the Space Wolves to see a Chapter that is made wholly by their home world. There are a number of ways in which you can utilize your home world as a vehicle to darken your Chapter. It could be some hidden flaw the Chapter is unaware of, it could be the Chapter's outlook upon their home world.

 

Start in your past. My Imperial Dragons were remade into something completely different when they were betrayed from within, and the reverberations of that heresy stayed with them millennia after. My War Consuls used to pride themselves on being everything their lord Guilliman had wanted of his sons, until one day they felt they had failed him, failed his vision, and the shame of that day has weighed upon them ever since. Every Chapter has a lengthy, storied past of greater relevance to them than their present, but some could be seen as trapped by their past. Look to the Dark Angels for a Chapter whose identity is forged most by their past. It could be a past defeat, a schism, perhaps a nostalgic obsession with 'better days' or a continued, manic dedication to an ancient duty long undone in everyone else's eyes.

 

Give them an external influence. My Emerald Tigers had a foe so determined, so powerful, that it nearly cost the Chapter everything to stand in defiance of it. My Crimson Spectres are convinced that something evil masquerades as their ally, and ignores all claims to the contrary, from all quarters. The Angels Penumbral are surrounded by the influences of the heightened authority the Ecclesiarchy enjoys in their local region, which has done more to shape them than they would care to admit. Look at the Iron Hands, defined by their hate, instilled within them by the true betrayal of their closest brothers, and the perceived betrayal of those who should have stood by them. This can cover a wide range, from the influence of one of the many Imperial organs, to a dogged enemy that could either be the hunter or the hunted. Maybe it changes the Chapter, or maybe it changes the environment.

 

There are a number of other ways that I tried to grim up my Chapters that didn't quite fit in those categories. My Knights Sovereign are truly among the Unforgiven, with all that entails. My Storm Bearers have forsaken the Promethean Creed in favor of their Cyclopean Creed, effectively excising many of the positive elements one would expect of a Salamanders successor. My Guardians of Midas suffer from a minor genetic flaw, blown out of proportion by their obsessive need for purity, itself derivative of their single-minded pursuit of their lost father, Jaghatai Khan. My Conclave will be destroyed when, in ignorance of their past, they allow within a serpent.

 

Hopefully these examples can help you find the right path for your Chapter(s) to take.

[Olis]

[...]and Cicatrizing (hope that's the right word for adding scars to yourself),

I think the term may be 'scarification'. You're in the ballpark brother but the word you used is not specific enough. :)

 

Or on other words: When looking at my DIY-IA, there is certainly missing something directly grimdark, and I do miss that in some of the IA in the Liber also. I might be just a personal perspective, but that's exactly the reason why I ask here: To find out, if I'm not the only one.

 

 

Thanks a lot!

 

I applaud your ability to sit up and take notice of a certain aspect to creating a chapter, something that some people fail to see for a long time - your 'supermen' aren't all that super. They can be flawed, intolerant, out-of-touch, cursed or just plain gits. Yes, marines are awesome but not without some drawbacks. The drawbacks could be cultural, personal, historical, medical or diplomatic. I have an old, old DIY chapter that's had a poor relationship with the adeptus mechanicus. It's not a game breaker for them but it does inform their opinion and actions millennia after the crisis point. Just remember - cause and effect. 

 

So. Do you have some ideas you'd like to talk about? :)

[Filius]

@Conn Eremon: Wow, thanks a lot for so much feedback and insight! I really like your systematical approach and that way of thinking, when it comes to creative processes. That is definetly a lot to continue working with.

@Olis:

So. Do you have some ideas you'd like to talk about?

Thank you very much for the kind invitation! That's very encouraging. But right now, I'd rather try to follow the DOs of DIYing rule "Read, read and then read some more." and try to get my head around some concepts of 40k in general and to be more precise around the nature of Space Marine Chapters, especially those that are successfull from a narrative point of view. So I am probably going to ask some more noob-questions, before getting to the chapters themselves, if that's okay. :D

[Olis]

No problem. Everyone starts somewhere. :tu:

[Conn Eremon]

It's exactly what we are here for. To help you create what you want your Chapter (or otherwise) to be.

[Nineswords]

You're making an assumption that all of these traits are 'dark', as if there is something wrong with them. They may be wrong to you, but these faults may not be faults to them: the Angels and Wolves know this 'dark side' is a genetic/psychic defect - Their resistance to it js important to their culture. It defines who they are. The Ultramarines understand their transhuman physiology can be used to other purposes than making war. It is what defines them, but to others they are perceived as arrogant. The scarification is like getting a tattoo. It's a mark of belonging, of identity.

 

What may be 'dark' or 'wrong' to you is perfectly acceptable by their standards and cultural upbringing and it's what makes them interesting. I suggest for your own chapter you really think of their effect of their culture or location or heritage affects them - it determines their attitudes, motivations, aesthetics, battle doctrine etc. I'd substitute 'dark' for 'interesting'. Flaws help. It's the very human, fallible side for beings who are innately not human at all.

 

Just something to think about.

[Filius]

@Nineswords: That's a good point. There are some traits that make a chapter grimdark for us, the readers and creators and some traits that make a chapter grimdark even within the fictional universe. And even within both perspectives, there's a variation depending on who you are. If you – as a reader – are a Buerocrat there's a fair chance, you don't consider the Ultramarines as grimdark. And while the Ultramarines probably don't consider themselves grimdark, they definetly consider the Moritfactors as grimdark.

 

I agree with you that – as the creator of a chapter – it's very important to know about the extend of the Grimdark-Trait, you're thinking about. I'll keep that in mind, thanks!

 

By the way: I really enjoy the discussion here. That's a lot of fun and you guys really have a lot of interesting experiences. Thanks a lot for your patience, kindness and willingness to help and share things!

[hummus]

Think about how Marines are made: they are adolescent boys who are chosen for some kind of martialistic instincts or talents, sometimes involving selection contests where killing other children is totally acceptable (or at least beating the snot out of them, etc.), and they are then removed totally from their families from then on, never again to have human contact except in the form of Chapter serfs until they have completed their time advancing to the Scout squads. They are hypnotically adjusted to some extent, with some trigger words implanted according different texts, inducted into their Chapter cults, trained in the art of war (and only the art of war) in a fashion that likely makes boot camp/early enlistment training in a modern military look like a day care center for a period of at least four years, probably more like six to ten years. They are also surgically altered in numerous procedures over periods of years and then their bodies are distorted further by the implantation of organs found in no human body to specifically alter them to something other than human. Their emotions themselves are impacted in some fashion by techniques designed specifically to root out and kill off feelings and triggers of the human fear response, which likely alters other emotional patterns as well - since much of human emotionality seems connected.

 

I think the best yet could describe them as emotionally would be "detached", which wouldn't lend it self to humans viewing them as nice. They are likely not all frothing at the mouth maniacs, but they aren't touchy-feely humanocentric do-gooder Supermen either.

 

This instantly makes me think of a clockwork orange except that in the hypnotic scene instead of making them nice they hypnotise them to become more violent or follow there orders without doubt

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Any and all traits can be dark, depending on the point-of-view. As "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," one Chapter's vice (it's "Dark Side") is another Chapter's virtue (it's "Light Side"). What's important is how this trait affects the Marines and others, something dependent on your skills as a writer. It's worth noting that virtue can inspire others to vice, if taken to excess; for example, expressing kindness towards children and concern for their welfare, can be seen as "spoiling" them.

[simison]

I'm sorry for taking so long to reply. Fair points about the Salamanders, and it is the expectation that every chapter have some form of grimdark injected into it, whether it be an internal (the Blood Angel's Red Thirst) or external (a chapter being pushed to the brink of annihilation) reason. Now, whether you agree with that expectation is another thing entirely.

[Filius]

@Bjorn Firewalker: Ah, yeah, that's another good point in this discussion, and one that I was hardly aware of. I thinkt the Ultramarines are a good example for a Virtue being turned grimdark. Them sticking close to the Codex Astartes, makes them some kind of warfare-buerocrats.

 

But, would you agree, that a Chapter needs a piece of grimdark (not matter how it's created)? Or could you think of a "bright and shining" Chapter, that still fits into 40k well?

 

@Simison: More or less the same question to you: Do you expect that something grimdark is injected into every Chapter?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

What you add to 'Warhammer 40,000'- your own Chapter of Space Marines, in this case- has to be suitable for the setting, or you risk inviting the backlash and criticisms that greeted the creators of 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' when they added Section 31 and the Dominion War to the noblebright setting of 'Star Trek'. As for a "bright and shining" Chapter, I'm reminded of the following quote from a review of Berserk:

 

But, you know what they say about shining beacons of light? They cast very dark shadows.

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

To add a "bright and shining" Chapter to the "grimdark" setting of 'Warhammer 40,000', you must either be a competent writer, willing to make the necessary compromises to let your addition fit; or you must abandon all pretense of making your "noblebright" addition fit, and add it to the PARODY setting of Brighthammer 40,000 instead.

[simison]

Honestly, I expect grimdark to be a part of every chapter identity, but I don't think it is necessary for every chapter to be grimdark. Firewalker does point out that anyone who avoids the grimdark theme will face extra criticism and backlash, but it can be done. After all, when given an entire galaxy and over thousands of Marine chapters, it's not inconceivable that one of them is not being screwed over by overwhelming character flaws or by fate. The setting itself provides plenty of shadows itself that simply existing in 40k is one shadow in of itself.