Chaos in close combat?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So I'm playing space wolves, and they're pretty good in close combat. But I played black legion today, and got wrecked in CC. I know my grey hunters aren't a dedicated melee unit, so how should I approach this. Do I rely on my tried and true, shoot, shoot more, and eat the charge tactic, or what?

[Kraytirous]

Chaos usually has access to Dirge Casters, meaning you won't get an overwatch. Also, most Chaos Marines will also have bolters, meaning that they should be able to match you rapid fire for rapid fire, so the charge is fairly important. I find that Chaos usually gets beaten by static combat resolution. Give the Chaos player a throw-away character in a challenge and obliterate his/her unit with your own. 

[CrystalSeer]

Most tried and true advice in Warhammer: Shoot the Choppy Ones, Chop the shooty ones.

 

Chaos is largely dedicated to close combat, so you will need to shoot alot of them to maintain an upper hand.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ok, I think that's kinda of where I messed up. I wanted to get into close combat too quickly. I should spend more time shooting from cover and taking them apart than getting in close. I did put some units out in the open, which was dumb, but the way the board was set up, there' was really no where else to go, that afforded me the opportunity to get in close and kill. I'll remember to put my really choppy units near his shooty ones, but take advantage of cover until they can assault.

[Ishagu]

Chaos beat wolves in cc?

Chaos generally suck in cc

[Kilofix]

Chaos beat wolves in cc?

Chaos generally suck in cc

I dunno about that. MoK and Icon gives Furious Charge, Rage, Counter Attack, reroll Charge range.

 

And even regular CSM can get extra CC like Wolves.

 

Their only issue is forced to Challenge and no ATSKNF.

[Ishagu]

All that stuff adds up to so many points it's not worth it over the extra bodies.

 

Blood Angels are Marines with mark of Khorne and Slaneesh pretty much... For free... Not forgetting ATSKNF

[Kilofix]

All that stuff adds up to so many points it's not worth it over the extra bodies.

Blood Angels are Marines with mark of Khorne and Slaneesh pretty much... For free... Not forgetting ATSKNF

The points thing is completely true but I'm just saying regular SW, even with upgrades, can't go up against something like the above in CC and hope to win.

[King Jackal]

All that stuff adds up to so many points it's not worth it over the extra bodies.

 

Blood Angels are Marines with mark of Khorne and Slaneesh pretty much... For free... Not forgetting ATSKNF

 

But you are forgetting VOTLW

[CrystalSeer]

Chaos CC ability isn't based on unit upgrades (although they do have some good ones). Chaos CC is based on their characters and Daemon Princes. Trying to charge these with anything other than specialized characters is going to lead to a bad time.

[Sheesh Mode]

Chaos beat wolves in cc?

Chaos generally suck in cc

 

What's that you say? Chaos is great in close combat. However, they have to invest in it and properly support it. Furthermore, comparisons between Chaos and other marine armies fall flat because they operate differently. Our counters to Spacemarines rely more on throwing cheap units in the face of Spacemarine deathstars and mowing through their troops with our own. 

[tdemayo]

Interesting.

 

In my experience, I have found that fully tooled-up Chaos lords (not special characters) are less potent than their Loyalist counterparts, having weaker armor and invulnerable saves for the most part. Loyalist cc terminators are also superior to Chaos ones. It's only farther down the scale, that Chaos gains a noticeable cc advantage. My Plague Marines, even in short squads, are generally superior to Space Marine tactical, assault or bike squads. I charge them against those without fear. I see similar advantages for cc Chosen and Berserkers, but use them less. I don't use standard CSMS much, but in theory I see them as also having a slight edge over loyalists, if they take pistols + ccw. Cultists are crappier than everthing but gretchin, but they have such numbers they can effectively bulk out an assault with numbers.

 

On the oddball side Chaos has some weird cc stuff like maulerfiends, which are generally better cc machines than most loyalist dreads.

 

So I'd say overall Chaos has the advantage in most 3+ MEQ fights, but suffers in 2+ and character matchups.

[McGibs]

As "tooled up chaos lords" pretty much refers to juggerlords with blind axes, or nurgle bikerlords with claw/fist, I'm inclined to disagree. They do a pretty good job of cleaning imperial clocks.

Also, because chaos characters are forced to challenge, its usually not a bad idea to kit our squad champions with claws or powerweapons, while opponents usually do not. It's an investment yes, but it's directed by the codex, and makes mook chaos champions more killy vs other mook squads, at least from a meta perspective. 

Your grey hunter sergeant probably doesnt have a powerweapon (because why would he?), but my CSM champion always has a lightning claw, because he needs to challenge (and gets a dumb bonus if he wins). I paid 15 points for it, but in combat, my champion will probably slice up your sergeant.

Also, CSM are often paired up with deamons, who can give pretty nasty support on the CC front (hounds, seekers/nettes, princes/GDs). Loyalist marines don't really have an equivalent ally, as most imperial armies are pretty shooty, or other flavours of marines.

[CrystalSeer]

I've run both Chaos ( Before the Blessed light of the Emperor ignited my ZEAL) and loyalists. My Khorne Jugger Lord very seldom met his match on the field. The number of cc attacks that ignore armor is insane. In addition, the boons table becomes pretty impressive once you stack a few abilities on a good character. I've had games where the lord was Eternal Warrior, T6, and caused instant death. He went through a tooled Wolf Rider squad in one round of cc.

 

I'm not saying this always happens, I'm saying that Chaos has the capability for this to happen; and as such, having the mentality that you can charge them all the time just doesn't work. You have to identify what type of threats are in the enemy army ( They are quite diverse) and respond accordingly. Shoot the massive cc threats, and quickly get to grips with the things that will out-shoot you.

[Sheesh Mode]

Interesting.

 

In my experience, I have found that fully tooled-up Chaos lords (not special characters) are less potent than their Loyalist counterparts, having weaker armor and invulnerable saves for the most part. Loyalist cc terminators are also superior to Chaos ones. It's only farther down the scale, that Chaos gains a noticeable cc advantage. My Plague Marines, even in short squads, are generally superior to Space Marine tactical, assault or bike squads. I charge them against those without fear. I see similar advantages for cc Chosen and Berserkers, but use them less. I don't use standard CSMS much, but in theory I see them as also having a slight edge over loyalists, if they take pistols + ccw. Cultists are crappier than everthing but gretchin, but they have such numbers they can effectively bulk out an assault with numbers.

 

On the oddball side Chaos has some weird cc stuff like maulerfiends, which are generally better cc machines than most loyalist dreads.

 

So I'd say overall Chaos has the advantage in most 3+ MEQ fights, but suffers in 2+ and character matchups.

 

Chaos does have a disadvantage on the 2+/3++ scale. But that is because our equivalents serve a different purpose. Our deathstars are not as durable as loyalist deathstars, toughness doesn't stop power weapons and we can only get a 3++ on one model. Yet despite this there is a hell of a lot our codex can do when fighting loyalist deathstars. My strategy is to either cut it down with massed firepower then assault it with a deathstar of my own, or to spend a turn shooting at it before throwing my cultists into the blender. 

 

In my opinion Spacemarines and Chaos Spacemarines are not comparable because they function differently. Chaos is a mid-range, close combat army that relies on brute strength and endurance to pull through. Spacemarines are a mid-range/long range shooting army that rely on endurance and/or speed to pull through. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Basically, I threw a unit of basic wolf guard into the midfield to grab an objective. They never made it, and got assaulted by a unit of raptors. One of said raptors, the champion had a power sword. All of the attacks at I5 and no invuln led to my unit getting all but wiped out. I eventually killed everything in that combat, but I had 2 guys left, and they were about to get assaulted by Abbadon and a group of chaos termies. Bad day. Second, so much re-rolling because of Hatred (VOTLW). The mid field offered no cover and that's where the objectives were. I think I was too eager to get in CC. I also should have taken out his rhino full of thousand sons, but didn't (didn't know what was in the metal box, and didn't care, big mistake.) Then the heldrake came in. He also had a Dreadclaw assault pod thing. 

 

All told, we tied the game because of victory points. It was a friendly game, and I wanted to play him. I had fun, but I hate losing, so I need to reassess. 

 

My previous experience with black legion was a resounding success for me, and I won handily. So it was a rather humbling experience, I figured I needed some help from the folks here at B&C.

[Sheesh Mode]

Play up to your strengths. Loyalists rely on durability more than killing power whereas we traitors rely heavily on killing power over durability. 

[Kilofix]

Ignoring point cost, Chaos has a lot of Units that can be generally more deadly in CC (e.g. extra CC, Marks, VotLW, Mutations, etc.)

 

Loyalist Marines have HQs that can be straight up tougher (i.e. more resilient with 2+/3++);

but Chaos has HQs and Artifacts that have special rules that allow them to hit very hard (e.g. Khârn S7 AP2 A8 I5, hits on 2+, or like Black Mace).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Yeah, I just hit Khârn with the old helfrost pie plate whenever I see him. Done the trick before, It should do it again. Or pour so much dakka at him that he'll statistically fail enough times to die. Same tactic for Abaddon. Screw that I7 chaos crap. How come your janky, mutated, cankerous behinds can move faster than a loyalist? What's the lore on that? 

[Ishagu]

Khârn... He doesn't like power Fists.

I killed him turn one with an Orbital Bombardment a few games ago :-P