Were The Traitor Primarchs really Man-Children?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I see it on every forum I visit about how all the primarchs were a bunch of whiny kids and they just needed to grow up, but I really don't see that being the case. Could someone enlighten me as to how they are man-children?

[Conn Eremon]

Come on, do you mean to tell me that you have seen Konrad Curze, wearing his panties on his head and running around screaming NIGHT HAUNTER, with a lisp, streams of tears running down his face because nobody was around to say 'there there' when he was a baby and you don't think he came across as a man-child?

 

I suppose you thought Rogal "Stone Men feel no feelings because feelings are hard" Dorn was the height of maturity, then.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Oh come on. Lets be honest. They do act a bit childish (maybe more than a bit) and they all have severe Daddy issues. Plus lets give two big thumbs way way up for the Emperor, the galaxy's  biggest deadbeat dad.

 

Edit: And when I say they all have Daddy issues I mean all the Primarch's traitor or loyalist.

[Marshal Rohr]

No Primarch is known for sure to have been raised by the Emperor. Only Horus and maybe Alpharius had contact with him longer than most other Primarchs, and even Alpharius' origins are likely fake stories. Only Horus is known to have had the longest amount of contact with the Emperor. The other Primarchs were all raised by people on their home world, or lived alone into early teenage years. Of those, only Kurze and Ferrus were alone to adulthood. So any 'daddy issues' would come from the people that raised the Primarchs. Some were raised as saviors, like Fulgrim and Corax. Others were raised to be generals and kings, like Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals, and ADB has said he would see them more like that than as biological sons. If a Primarch is vain, it's because he was raised with that flaw by mortal humans. If he is disciplined and honorable, he got that from humans as well. It isn't that the Emperor built the Primarchs with flaws, it's that normal people :cuss them up before they ever met him. Only Kurze willfully chose to be :cuss up.

 

When people talk about Primarchs having normal human emotions turned up to 11, sure. But it wasn't the Emperor that did that, it was normal imperfect people who taught the Primarchs to be imperfect.

[DimDim]

No Primarch is known for sure to have been raised by the Emperor. Only Horus and maybe Alpharius had contact with him longer than most other Primarchs, and even Alpharius' origins are likely fake stories. Only Horus is known to have had the longest amount of contact with the Emperor. The other Primarchs were all raised by people on their home world, or lived alone into early teenage years. Of those, only Kurze and Ferrus were alone to adulthood. So any 'daddy issues' would come from the people that raised the Primarchs. Some were raised as saviors, like Fulgrim and Corax. Others were raised to be generals and kings, like Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals, and ADB has said he would see them more like that than as biological sons. If a Primarch is vain, it's because he was raised with that flaw by mortal humans. If he is disciplined and honorable, he got that from humans as well. It isn't that the Emperor built the Primarchs with flaws, it's that normal people them up before they ever met him. Only Kurze willfully chose to be up.

When people talk about Primarchs having normal human emotions turned up to 11, sure. But it wasn't the Emperor that did that, it was normal imperfect people who taught the Primarchs to be imperfect.

True dat!

[Stormborn]

The primarchs all have massively elevated growth cycles where they seem to have gone from new born to full adult in about 5 minutes, its no wonder they are all screwed up.  When did they have time to develop as human beings, they are the ultimate child soldiers.

[helterskelter]

200 year old man children bear in mind by the heresy. Though there are several instances where some put up or shut up/rational thought would've dealt with the situation sooo much better

[Kol Saresk]

No Primarch is known for sure to have been raised by the Emperor. Only Horus and maybe Alpharius had contact with him longer than most other Primarchs, and even Alpharius' origins are likely fake stories. Only Horus is known to have had the longest amount of contact with the Emperor. The other Primarchs were all raised by people on their home world, or lived alone into early teenage years. Of those, only Kurze and Ferrus were alone to adulthood. So any 'daddy issues' would come from the people that raised the Primarchs. Some were raised as saviors, like Fulgrim and Corax. Others were raised to be generals and kings, like Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals, and ADB has said he would see them more like that than as biological sons. If a Primarch is vain, it's because he was raised with that flaw by mortal humans. If he is disciplined and honorable, he got that from humans as well. It isn't that the Emperor built the Primarchs with flaws, it's that normal people :cuss them up before they ever met him. Only Kurze willfully chose to be :cuss up.

 

When people talk about Primarchs having normal human emotions turned up to 11, sure. But it wasn't the Emperor that did that, it was normal imperfect people who taught the Primarchs to be imperfect.

Actually even Curze is a product of his environment. He learned how to survive by watching people and animals devour corpses of those left for dead in the alleys. And from those corpses, he absorbed genetic memories of how the donor's viewed right and wrong, justice and punishment, law and order. Curze was taught to be who he became by the dead.

 

From there, just throw in some maddening visions of meeting the man he believed would kill him, the literal end of the world and who knows what else, possibly even the Heresy itself, and no wonder he became so unhinged.

[mc warhammer]

No Primarch is known for sure to have been raised by the Emperor. Only Horus and maybe Alpharius had contact with him longer than most other Primarchs, and even Alpharius' origins are likely fake stories. Only Horus is known to have had the longest amount of contact with the Emperor. The other Primarchs were all raised by people on their home world, or lived alone into early teenage years. Of those, only Kurze and Ferrus were alone to adulthood. So any 'daddy issues' would come from the people that raised the Primarchs. Some were raised as saviors, like Fulgrim and Corax. Others were raised to be generals and kings, like Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals, and ADB has said he would see them more like that than as biological sons. If a Primarch is vain, it's because he was raised with that flaw by mortal humans. If he is disciplined and honorable, he got that from humans as well. It isn't that the Emperor built the Primarchs with flaws, it's that normal people them up before they ever met him. Only Kurze willfully chose to be up.

When people talk about Primarchs having normal human emotions turned up to 11, sure. But it wasn't the Emperor that did that, it was normal imperfect people who taught the Primarchs to be imperfect.

Actually even Curze is a product of his environment. He learned how to survive by watching people and animals devour corpses of those left for dead in the alleys. And from those corpses, he absorbed genetic memories of how the donor's viewed right and wrong, justice and punishment, law and order. Curze was taught to be who he became by the dead.

From there, just throw in some maddening visions of meeting the man he believed would kill him, the literal end of the world and who knows what else, possibly even the Heresy itself, and no wonder he became so unhinged.

then again, he also reached for a weapon the very second he sprung from his pod before there was any interaction with his environment...

[Leonite]

... Angron isn't a man child. He's just REALLY PISSED from having lost every friend he had and having the Butcher's Nails. Actually, yeah, Angron is the best justified in my opinion.

[Marshal Rohr]

Angron and Mortarion have the most plausible downfalls. Both wanted to topple a Tyrant. Angron is the reverse of Rousseau's 'man is everywhere born free, and lives in chains'. He was given real freedom by the Emperor, but was never able to see it as anything but a new master. 'Too spiteful to prosper' in ADBs words. Mortarion has a Moses style Origin story, but instead of liberating the Barbarans, he became a creepy protector. The best part of Conquest was the depiction of the early years of the Age of Darkness as a political revolution, and not a religious one. Angron's political motivations were always the strongest executed in the weakest way possible because he was such a flawed standard bearer.

[Fire Golem]

What is Conquest actually about then, story wise? I thought it was just little battles after Istvaan. Still need to get it.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's Horus and Mortarion conquering the Coronid Deeps.

[Haywire]

Yes, as people have said before, they haven't been able to develop properly as 'humans' are wont to do. Look at our own society. Those who are 'different' or 'freakish' from us are often shoved to one side and forced to grow up in a world of their own. With nobody that they can relate to, they essentially live on their own and so struggle to develop as proper emphatic human beings. As was said earlier, they are essentially this turned up to 11.

 

Imagine what life would have been like for those Primarchs who were raised by humans. Right from the word go, they were seen as special in some form or another. Their rate of growth and their ability to learn was completely unmatched by any of the mortals with which they lived. As 'children', any other children that the Primarchs had as friends would have been left well in the dirt a long time ago. The adult teachers would have seemed a lot like dullards eventually as they outstripped them in intellect and ability. All that these humans could really do was teach values. What they couldn't do, was teach them how to be human and to grow up as healthy individuals.

 

It's only when they start meeting one another that you start seeing them forming relations, but even then, they're still isolated due to rivalries, distance, and the number of them that there are.

 

Not sure how much sense I made there.

[Marshal Loss]

In broader terms, Conquest is an example of what takes place during the conquest of the northern Imperium, and details the events immediately following Isstvan (where every Legion goes etc) and the relationship between Knights & Mechanicum, amongst other things. It's a fantastic book that really shows the scale of the Heresy in a way the first three didn't

 

On topic, I think sometimes they do come across as whiny morons but it's usually poor writing and when done well their excuses seem reasonable enough. The problem is, that we're told about problems/issues that occur over many decades/centuries that change their view of something (EG Emperor, Imperium blabla) but can only be told about it over the course of so many pages, which often simplifies the issue and makes it seem more trivial

[Gree]

I see it on every forum I visit about how all the primarchs were a bunch of whiny kids and they just needed to grow up, but I really don't see that being the case. Could someone enlighten me as to how they are man-children?

And what forums would these be then?

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, as people have said before, they haven't been able to develop properly as 'humans' are wont to do. Look at our own society. Those who are 'different' or 'freakish' from us are often shoved to one side and forced to grow up in a world of their own. With nobody that they can relate to, they essentially live on their own and so struggle to develop as proper emphatic human beings. As was said earlier, they are essentially this turned up to 11.

 

Imagine what life would have been like for those Primarchs who were raised by humans. Right from the word go, they were seen as special in some form or another. Their rate of growth and their ability to learn was completely unmatched by any of the mortals with which they lived. As 'children', any other children that the Primarchs had as friends would have been left well in the dirt a long time ago. The adult teachers would have seemed a lot like dullards eventually as they outstripped them in intellect and ability. All that these humans could really do was teach values. What they couldn't do, was teach them how to be human and to grow up as healthy individuals.

 

It's only when they start meeting one another that you start seeing them forming relations, but even then, they're still isolated due to rivalries, distance, and the number of them that there are.

 

Not sure how much sense I made there.

The Primarchs intellect, strength, and abilities are no different than prodigies in the real world. Relatively speaking, of course. Stephen Hawking, Beethoven, Grotius, Bentham, JS Mill, Einstein, Newton etc all had friends and family. There is no reason to think that Guilliman, as a prodigy, didn't learn empathy from Konor or that Russ wasn't exposed to friendships as a King. Primarchs were not immune to human development, but it brought human flaws with it.

[MrSocks]

Imagine you finally meet the 20 other people in the entire universe that you can related to and being told "Here's a legion of super warriors, split up and go conquer the galaxy for me but I'm going to go home and do something super secret, oh by the way your two brothers have disappeared lets never talk about them again but we'll bring them up from time to time because of reasons and before I go can I tell you all that Horus is my favourite son"

 

And you can kind of see why they weren't all too happy with the arrangement.

[Conn Eremon]

 

Yes, as people have said before, they haven't been able to develop properly as 'humans' are wont to do. Look at our own society. Those who are 'different' or 'freakish' from us are often shoved to one side and forced to grow up in a world of their own. With nobody that they can relate to, they essentially live on their own and so struggle to develop as proper emphatic human beings. As was said earlier, they are essentially this turned up to 11.

 

Imagine what life would have been like for those Primarchs who were raised by humans. Right from the word go, they were seen as special in some form or another. Their rate of growth and their ability to learn was completely unmatched by any of the mortals with which they lived. As 'children', any other children that the Primarchs had as friends would have been left well in the dirt a long time ago. The adult teachers would have seemed a lot like dullards eventually as they outstripped them in intellect and ability. All that these humans could really do was teach values. What they couldn't do, was teach them how to be human and to grow up as healthy individuals.

 

It's only when they start meeting one another that you start seeing them forming relations, but even then, they're still isolated due to rivalries, distance, and the number of them that there are.

 

Not sure how much sense I made there.

The Primarchs intellect, strength, and abilities are no different than prodigies in the real world. Relatively speaking, of course. Stephen Hawking, Beethoven, Grotius, Bentham, JS Mill, Einstein, Newton etc all had friends and family. There is no reason to think that Guilliman, as a prodigy, didn't learn empathy from Konor or that Russ wasn't exposed to friendships as a King. Primarchs were not immune to human development, but it brought human flaws with it.

Corax had a childhood friend that is now an old woman still in his service, and still seen as a friend.

 

Guilliman has Mamzel Euten.

 

The Lion had Luther.

 

Lorgar has Kor Phaeron.

 

Russ has his warrior brothers.

 

Angron had his gladiator brothers and sisters.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did you mean to quote me or Darvell?

[Marshal Rohr]

Imagine you finally meet the 20 other people in the entire universe that you can related to and being told "Here's a legion of super warriors, split up and go conquer the galaxy for me but I'm going to go home and do something super secret, oh by the way your two brothers have disappeared lets never talk about them again but we'll bring them up from time to time because of reasons and before I go can I tell you all that Horus is my favourite son"

 

And you can kind of see why they weren't all too happy with the arrangement.

That's the 'family' view ADB debunked. Horus was the Emperor's favorite General, not son. The other Primarchs weren't meant to be besties. And the Emperor led them on the field for 200 years before retiring to Terra. In fact, he spent a total of 6 years on Terra opposed to 200 leading the Crusade and 1000 leading the unification wars. The guy earned his pension. It was because normal people taught the Primarchs the Emperor was supposed to be like a father to them, that made them suffer when he turned out to be their commander.

[Conn Eremon]

Did you mean to quote me or Darvell?

Both. You said that they should still have been able to forge relationships, and I was providing examples of that.

[MrSocks]

 

Imagine you finally meet the 20 other people in the entire universe that you can related to and being told "Here's a legion of super warriors, split up and go conquer the galaxy for me but I'm going to go home and do something super secret, oh by the way your two brothers have disappeared lets never talk about them again but we'll bring them up from time to time because of reasons and before I go can I tell you all that Horus is my favourite son"

 

And you can kind of see why they weren't all too happy with the arrangement.

That's the 'family' view ADB debunked. Horus was the Emperor's favorite General, not son. The other Primarchs weren't meant to be besties. And the Emperor led them on the field for 200 years before retiring to Terra. In fact, he spent a total of 6 years on Terra opposed to 200 leading the Crusade and 1000 leading the unification wars. The guy earned his pension. It was because normal people taught the Primarchs the Emperor was supposed to be like a father to them, that made them suffer when he turned out to be their commander.

 

 

It was tongue in cheek, but difficult to convey over the internet.

 

However yes, but bearing in mind that they were so isolated they were heavily influenced also by the company they kept, usually the high command of their legions (who although trans humans till had the human flaws). Whether they were "supposed" to be brothers or not it's still the only people who could really relate to their situation and be their equal. (Just think of how many trusted advisers are treated throughout the early heresy and you can see why they needed the others more than ever).

 

And whether or not Horus was general or son, "First among equals" which further punched a hole and isolated him.

[Hesh Kadesh]

As was right. Primus Inter Pares has been used in antiquity as a position to encourage bringing out the best in people and to encourage others to be better. It is a military thing. During Royal Marine training they have something called Kings Badgemen, which is the best recruit in each troop, selected from 3-4 shortlisted - when those selected for interview for the badge, they all help out.

 

Maybe that comes from 30 weeks of training with each other, but these guys have fought and formed friendships and enemies among each other for in excess of 50 years (alpharius last found, according to Index Astartes, although now proven incorrect, Nurthene War happened 50 years prior to Heresy), Warmaster should NOT have bothered them as much as it should. It is a like a Special Forces colonel complaining that someone else got promoted to general instead of them. They are still SF guys and get to that job they are best at for no real loss.

 

The only complaint would be those that didn't like Horus - and AFAIK, IIRC, he was if not universally liked, he was at least respected by the notorious rebels of Angron, Curze, Alpharius and Khan, while Lion, Sang, Dorn, Rowboat and Ferrus liked him. And that potential complaint would be less of him being capable rather than jealousy - especially as none of the 4 'rebel' primarchs didn't show interest in high command. I cannot remember what the others thought, but IIRC The Lion was fairly bitter about the appointment - but then he has been bitter about most things.

[Fire Golem]

Corax didn't like Horus, after Horus fed his troops through the meat grinder at the battle of Gate 42, but I'm not sure if that was before or after Horus was made Warmaster. Alpahrius did get on well with Horus (not sure if this has been retconned but he spent a fair bit of time with Horus in original fluff before even meeting the Emperor and Horus actually respected his way of fighting. I think Horus was the only Primarch Alpharius got on with). I think the Lion thought it should have been him, he's an excellent tactician, but he lacked people skills.

 

I think most Primarchs were okay with Horus being Warmaster, they were more annoyed by the fact that there was any need for a Warmaster at all, they didn't like that the Emperor was leaving the crusade.