Were The Traitor Primarchs really Man-Children?

[Marshal Rohr]

One of the DA HH books ended with the Lion giving guns to Perturabo in exchange for his support as Warmaster, but the timeline was all screwed up, because the Lion isn't supposed to know about Isstvan V until much later.

[Komrk]

Corax didn't like Horus, after Horus fed his troops through the meat grinder at the battle of Gate 42, but I'm not sure if that was before or after Horus was made Warmaster. Alpahrius did get on well with Horus (not sure if this has been retconned but he spent a fair bit of time with Horus in original fluff before even meeting the Emperor and Horus actually respected his way of fighting. I think Horus was the only Primarch Alpharius got on with). I think the Lion thought it should have been him, he's an excellent tactician, but he lacked people skills.

 

I think most Primarchs were okay with Horus being Warmaster, they were more annoyed by the fact that there was any need for a Warmaster at all, they didn't like that the Emperor was leaving the crusade.

 

It was Horus' first big invasion as Warmaster if I remember correctly

[helterskelter]

If the Emperor just explained himself the heresy could have been avoided.

"dear x,

i am returning to terra to make a stable way to navigate space so we don't have to use the warp anymore, coz theres stuff in there that wants us dead. I need all of you to secure humanities future by claiming our lost colonies and keeping space safe til i'm finished. I have second jobs for you all when its done, so dont worry. Your sons will be our guardians. Leaving the big H in charge, he's got the jist of what i need you to do. Love you all, dad.

P.s. Curze i need you to chat to magnus about your gifts.

P.p.s. Mortarian and angron, two evil overlord heads on spikes on their way to you.

P.p.p.s pertie i do appreciate the work you do, cheers my boy.

P.p.p.p.s the first man to kill erebus gets a raise."

 

Problem solved. How hard was that. Apart from killing the entire hobby of course

[Marshal Rohr]

If the Emperor just explained himself the heresy could have been avoided.

"dear x,

i am returning to terra to make a stable way to navigate space so we don't have to use the warp anymore, coz theres stuff in there that wants us dead. I need all of you to secure humanities future by claiming our lost colonies and keeping space safe til i'm finished. I have second jobs for you all when its done, so dont worry. Your sons will be our guardians. Leaving the big H in charge, he's got the jist of what i need you to do. Love you all, dad.

P.s. Curze i need you to chat to magnus about your gifts.

P.p.s. Mortarian and angron, two evil overlord heads on spikes on their way to you.

P.p.p.s pertie i do appreciate the work you do, cheers my boy.

P.p.p.p.s the first man to kill erebus gets a raise."

 

Problem solved. How hard was that. Apart from killing the entire hobby of course

We'd still have Legions at least :(

[LongGone]

One of the DA HH books ended with the Lion giving guns to Perturabo in exchange for his support as Warmaster, but the timeline was all screwed up, because the Lion isn't supposed to know about Isstvan V until much later.

If I remember that story correctly, he only knows about Isstvan III. Perturabo helps him out, and the Lion gives him the ordinatus to use in the fight 'against' the traitors on Isstvan V.

[Marshal Rohr]

Because they were written so long ago, I don't think that jives with the latest timeline set down by BL and FW. In Conquest it mentions the DA/Ultras have no idea about Isstvan V, and the Blood Angels were already trapped at Signus.

[Hesh Kadesh]

ignore.

[Wade Garrett]

P.s. Curze i need you to chat to magnus about your gifts.

 

The Primarch who sold himself to Tzeencht. Whose entire Legion has little daemon Pokemon bound to their souls. This is your choice to help straighten out Night Haunter.

 

I see no way this could possibly backfire. :p

[helterskelter]

 

P.s. Curze i need you to chat to magnus about your gifts.

 

The Primarch who sold himself to Tzeencht. Whose entire Legion has little daemon Pokemon bound to their souls. This is your choice to help straighten out Night Haunter.

 

I see no way this could possibly backfire. :p

I see your point entirely, but considering he told fulgrim and dorn and got locked up for his trouble, magnus is probably the better route, because magic. No one else had precognitive abilities. Therefore no one else could understand. Except maybe alpharius because he's alpharius

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

actually, Sanguinius had precognitive abilities, was known as one of the more sympathetic of his brothers, and is burdened by the curse of his legionnaires.

 

if there was any primarch capable of attempting to work with Curze's bundle of crazy, it'd be Sangy.

 

WLK 

[Leonite]

P.s. Curze i need you to chat to magnus about your gifts.

The Primarch who sold himself to Tzeencht. Whose entire Legion has little daemon Pokemon bound to their souls. This is your choice to help straighten out Night Haunter.

I see no way this could possibly backfire.

Hold on, little Daemons bound to the Thousand Sons? Are you talking about them or the Exorcists Space Marine chapter? Or the Word Bearers?

Also, Magnus only gave himself over to Tzeentch fully because of Leman Russ attacking Prospero, and before that refused to fight.

actually, Sanguinius had precognitive abilities, was known as one of the more sympathetic of his brothers, and is burdened by the curse of his legionnaires.

if there was any primarch capable of attempting to work with Curze's bundle of crazy, it'd be Sangy.

WLK

One could say that asking Sanguinus to talk with Magnus would be the smart idea too, instead of sending Leman Russ, who you know hates Magnus and is hated back, and isn't willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, he :cussed up by listening to Horus and not, y'know, questioning it. Yes, it's Horus, but I'd expect a Custodian to at least tell me. Mind you, Magnus doesn't come up smelling of roses from it.

[Conn Eremon]

Every Thousand Sons had a Tutelary, which were literally daemons masquerading as spirit guides. And Magnus sold his soul and those of his sons long before Prospero burned.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, in my book Magnus had already blown multiple chances and deserved what happened with Prospero...but thats a whole other debate.

 

WLK

[LongGone]

Because they were written so long ago, I don't think that jives with the latest timeline set down by BL and FW. In Conquest it mentions the DA/Ultras have no idea about Isstvan V, and the Blood Angels were already trapped at Signus.

I can't tell if you may be confusing Isstvan III and V or not. I've never seen any official timelines, so it just seemed like that particular story went down sometime between III and V, and that there weren't any time issues with it.

 

Are you saying they simply don't know about the *outcome*of V, and that a few more legions have turned, or do they just not know anything about III at all? Like 'What's this Isstvan system you speak of, and oh sweet Emprah why are the Night Lords attacking us?!?'

 

Edit: That 'confused' comment wasn't questioning your fluff knowledge, as I'm sure you have more than me. It's just I was saying III, and you were saying V, and I wanted to clarify what we were both talking about.

[helterskelter]

actually, Sanguinius had precognitive abilities, was known as one of the more sympathetic of his brothers, and is burdened by the curse of his legionnaires.

 

if there was any primarch capable of attempting to work with Curze's bundle of crazy, it'd be Sangy.

 

WLK

I had somehow forgotten this.. Caught up in the moment and such cheers WLK, but again helps with the case a bit. Pointed in the correct direction curze might not have gone so crazy

[Relict]

Man-children? Hmm, let's see...

 

Fulgrim: "Me and my Legion must be perfect in every way... When someone else is honored instead of us, it is an insult to the Third Legion! My dear Fabius, I give you full leave to do whatever your crazy mind dreams up to our gene-seed. Never mind this demonic sword telling me to kill everyone I love."

 

Perturabo: "I have spent the past hundred odd years putting my nose to the dirt, working hard and hoping that daddy would finally notice me and give me the approval I desperately need. What's this? Olympia has risen up in rebellion? I'm going to take all my pent-up frustration out on my own homeworld."

 

Konrad Curze: "I will be the instrument to punish the guilty... I will always employ the most brutal methods I can think of, never mind the fact that my seventeen brothers have had just as much success using less flaying..."

 

Angron: "Daddy left my true brothers and sisters to die instead of saving them like he did the BFFs of my brothers! Aaargh I hate him! The tyrant! The slaver!"

 

Mortarion: "Daddy denied me the chance to prove myself on Barbarus. I should have taken down that necromancer or died trying. He cares only about himself - what about my honor and pride?"

 

Magnus: "I knew consorting with that blue bird-daemon thing was a bad idea..."

 

Horus: "The responsibilities of being Warmaster! They are too much! And where is my statue?!"

 

Lorgar: "I worshipped him like a God and he smacked me and my Legion down for it. I'm going to be all rebellious - pick up punk rock, tattoo my face, and start worshipping those things in the Warp instead. Much more hardcore." 

 

Alpharius: "This group of alien schemers told me that Horus winning is the best outcome. FOR THE EMPEROR."

 

What the Emperor should have done...

1. Explain the nature of Chaos to all the Primarchs - warn them that it must trying to entice them. The thing with the horns is bad, mmmkay?

2. Had regular holographic sessions with his special little boy Horus. 

3. To Perturabo: "I appreciate all you have done for me. Why don't you come back to Terra with me and fortify the Imperial Palace?

4. To Alpharius: "Under no circumstances are you to consort with xenos."

5. Sent Angron and Curze on xenos eradication missions.

6. Thrown Kor Phaeron and Erebus out of the airlock at first opportunity. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

if i were the big E, i'd of taken my power fisted hand to my sons arses along time ago. They may of known pain and humiliation but without a fathers discipline on a personal nature why the hell should they consider his point of view or feel loyalty to him? 

 

The worst hit primarchs were those who had to father figure to lean on or had to much responsibility from him in the 1st place.

 

1: Mortation: father was an evil gas lord

2: Konrad: cannibalistic brutal orphan 

3: Angron: made a slave (and sphyco nails) 

4: Fulgrim: general douche baggery 

5: Pertuabo: had a father figure, but was abit to evil even for Perty.

6: Lorgar, 'caring' father figure Kor, shame he was an evil worshiping  nut job

 

 

With direction these boys could of been true sons, problem is by the time he found them they were not his boys, they were his 'men'.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Because they were written so long ago, I don't think that jives with the latest timeline set down by BL and FW. In Conquest it mentions the DA/Ultras have no idea about Isstvan V, and the Blood Angels were already trapped at Signus.

I can't tell if you may be confusing Isstvan III and V or not. I've never seen any official timelines, so it just seemed like that particular story went down sometime between III and V, and that there weren't any time issues with it.

 

Are you saying they simply don't know about the *outcome*of V, and that a few more legions have turned, or do they just not know anything about III at all? Like 'What's this Isstvan system you speak of, and oh sweet Emprah why are the Night Lords attacking us?!?'

 

Edit: That 'confused' comment wasn't questioning your fluff knowledge, as I'm sure you have more than me. It's just I was saying III, and you were saying V, and I wanted to clarify what we were both talking about.

I'll see if I can find the exact reference for you tonight, but Book 4 from FW makes it sound like the Dark Angels were out near somethjng called the Shield Worlds when Horus was making his way to the Coronid Deeps. This makes me think that either Diamat is out of sync with the new FW/BL timeline, where there is a big chunk of time between Isstvan 3 and 5, or that The Lion knew about Isstvan 3 and Isstvan 5 but didn't know the Iron Warriors had turned.

 

Edit: TBH, I'm not big on holding into dates and times as sacrosanct in the heresy series anymore, simply because it has expanded so much since it's initial releases that sometimes the changes can actually improve the continuity. If the Dark Angels were none the wiser to Isstvan V in Fallen Angels and completely oblivious to Horus' treachery at all in the FW books, I don't take it as a big deal because I'm personally more interested in the FW side of the Heresy than the Black Library side.

[Karthak]

Honestly, to me it seems like the only man-children were some of the traitor primarchs, with the loyalists mostly having their heads screwed on straight.

[Leonite]

Honestly, to me it seems like the only man-children were some of the traitor primarchs, with the loyalists mostly having their heads screwed on straight.

To quote the "If the Emperor had a text to speech device" I'D AGREE WITH YOU BUT NOPE

 

Russ was way too quick to distrust Magnus and not, say, raise the issue directly with him. Or perhaps suggest that his Totally not Psykers could help and teach Magnus's legion some tricks they use to better strengthen the use of their psychic might, to better protect them.

 

Dorn was a bit of a glory hog and could've stood to, at the very least, lied once in a while, like in joint operations with Peturabo and let his brother have the glory.

 

Corax seemed to love the lonely act at times and ended up leaving after making a single mistake with his legion.

 

Ferrus Manus, while moderate on his view of cybernetic, held too little value for Human life, almost a disdain for it some might argue.

 

As for the others, I'll let you people argue that. The only one who seemed to get an exception on said Youtube show (portraying the Emperor getting a Text to speech device installed into the Throne in the 41 Millenium and talking with a Custodes about what he's missed and his opinion on certain things, with parts of canon exaggerated for comedy) was Sanguinius. 

[Marshal Rohr]

All the loyalists did have their head on straight...

 

It's always been the case the traitors were a bit evil to begin with.

[Fire Golem]

All the loyalists did have their head on straight...

 

It's always been the case the traitors were a bit evil to begin with.

The traitors were worse, but some of the Loyalists were a bit... Iffy.

[Slips]

I mean, look at the Lion...

 

And our own Gene Sire. Sure he wasnt as bad as the others but an infinitesimal increase in communication skills might've made the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors best buddies instead of Bitter Enemies. Thats not to say Perturabo didn't do his fare share to muck things up.

 

Of all the Primarchs I'd agree that Sanguinius was pretty much the most balanced. But even he had things to hide.

[Marshal Rohr]

No ruler is perfect. Generally the loyalist Primarchs all came from backgrounds where the established high-functioning states. Dorn, Guilliman, the Lion, and the Khan all established World Spanning empires, and Dorn (more recently) and Guilliman (since 2nd edition) established large space faring empires. Russ and Ferrus led personalistic absolute monarchies over competing tribal clans. Corax was in the process of his revolution when he was discovered by the Emperor, and at the moment I can't remember if Baal experienced a renaissance under Sanguinius, but I doubt it since the Baalites in M41 are still rad gangs.

 

To contrast, Angron and Perturabo were both simply generals when found by the Emperor. Angron because his implants kept him from achieving anything, and Perturabo because he never cared to lead at all. Kurze established a legalistic Tyranny and didn't lead his world into a functioning state system, given it collapsed faster than the Balkans the minute he was off world. Mortarion was the anti-Vulkan, becoming a vigilante protector of the humans of Barbarus. Fulgrim and Lorgar were both triumphalist saviors who established a personalistic technocracy and theocracy, respectively (neither of which are viable states). Horus and Alpharius have no known history on their own planets with mysterious origin stories. Only Magnus established a state, and really it was a post-state because of the psychic shenanigans, and he would've been loyal if he wasn't forced into his situation.

[Wade Garrett]

Given the amount of internecine warfare on Fenris, Chogoris, and Medusa, I think claiming that those Primarchs built kingdoms and empires is stretching it.