Were The Traitor Primarchs really Man-Children?

[tdemayo]

It can't help their development that the first thing most of them were asked to do, upon being found as "infants" was to kill. And then, when discovered by the Emperor, given a Legion of brutal superhumans and told to conquer and destroy to the exclusion of most other human pursuits for decade upon decade. Pretty much their whole existence involves dominating, commanding, or destroying people weaker than themselves. That'll mess anyone up.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't know about that. Lorgar and Magnus started off as scholars. Fulgrim was a corporate bureaucrat.

 

And even when you get to the "warlord" Primarchs (Russ, Jonson, Perturbo, etc) you can't really say they had a worse upbringing than the average Jarl, Knight, Tyrant, or what have you's heir.

[godking]

Angron is the only Traitor primarch with a legit reason to hate the emperor and the only traitor primarch who deserves an answer from the Emperor.

 

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Angron is the only Traitor primarch with a legit reason to hate the emperor and the only traitor primarch who deserves an answer from the Emperor.

To posit a statement like that, the burden on proof to back up why you think the other primarchs are not capable of having legit reasons to hate the Emperor is on you.

 

Lorgar, Magnus and Horus most notably hate the Emperor as a result of the events on Monarchia, Prospero, and being shown the direct 'truth' of the nature of the warp (bear in mind, they are daemons, so could lie, but their exitence flies in the face of what the Emperor himself said and his reasoning for the Crusade). If seei.g your greatest achievement humiliated and destroyed by the very person you love isnota reason to hate them, I don't know what is. If seeing your homeworld destroyed by psychophobic hypocrits in return fro attempting to warn the person you love is not a genuine reason to hate, well damn.

 

Perterabo; the bullied one, effectively. Never praised, never noted. His hopes and dreams completely ruined by necessity. If guilliman was not allowed to build his empire, he would have been annoyed. If Khan was shackled, what then? Sanguinius losing his wings? Much of their identity being destoryed in that process.

 

Alpharius; he never hated anyone. He sided with Horus to save the galaxy at the cost of humanity. Remember Goldeneye when James Bond sets the timers to blow and Alex Trevalyan later states 'it was always about the job', that is turned up to 11 here.

 

The early novels were weak on Fulgrim and Morty so we willnever reallyknow more than

'their trusted general and friend is showing them proof that they were actively lied tofor their entire existence, here is proof'

[Noctus Cornix]

All Primarchs are man children, when you get down to it. There really isn't an exception.

 

The same can be said for most Space Marines.

[Wade Garrett]

In Index Astartes: Death Guard Mortarion had some legitimate reasons to despise the Emperor (Big E told him that if he didn't want his home planet conquered by the Imperium, he had to challenge the his necromancer foster father all by himself. It didn't end well.)

 

For that matter, his "We need to get rid of all these witches and Warp nonsense" stance in the novel "Scars" seemed pretty reasonable to me.

 

Although the less said of his "YARRRR! Zombies and daemons are awesome!" turn in "Vengeful Spirit" the better.

[Conn Eremon]

In Index Astartes: Death Guard Mortarion had some legitimate reasons to despise the Emperor (Big E told him that if he didn't want his home planet conquered by the Imperium, he had to challenge the his necromancer foster father all by himself. It didn't end well.)

Eh? How's that the Emperor's fault again?

 

Mortarion: Well damn. Just my dad left, but my army can't get that high, and hell I couldn't even get that high when I was younger. So the only possible army I can assault his keep with is myself, if I can survive the climb.

 

Random Outsider: I can help!

 

Mortarion: Why does everyone love you?!

 

Random Outsider: Seriously, I can do it, though.

 

Mortarion: No! All I need is myself!

 

Random Outsider: Well, okay. But if you can't do it yourself, I will.

 

Mortarion: YOU'RE NOT MY DAD.

 

*spinning aquila*

 

Mortarion: I . . . I can't go on. I just can't. Help. Help!

 

Random Outsider: Shush now, I got you. Don't worry, I'll handle this.

 

Mortarion: YOU'RE NOT MY DAD.

 

 

Seriously, I really don't see how Mortarion's upbringing and initial encounter with the Emperor is the Emperor's mistake, and not Mortarion's own flaws making it difficult. Here's what the IA had of it:

 

"When he had determined precisely how high into the toxic clouds of Barbarus's peaks [Mortarion] could survive, he erected a stony keep and fenced it behind black iron. Then he moved his own manse beyond, to the highest crag, where the atmosphere was deadly even to the nascent Primarch."

 

"Mortarion's acceptance amongst the human settlers of Barbarus was no simple thing."

 

"[T]o them he was little different from the monsters above."

 

"It stung the young Primarch, but he bided his time[.]"

 

I don't want to quote the whole bit, but the whole description of his rise to power among the mortal Barbarans is rife with words like 'slowly' and 'eventually,' 

 

"Mortarion and his retinue of warriors, masked with crude filtering hoses and breathing gear, advanced into the fog after them [an "unholy army"]. For the first time in living memory the prey brought death into the realm of death[.]"

 

"Mortarion continually improved his warrior's breathing apparatus, and he and his Death Guard, as his retinue came to be known, campaigned ever higher[.]"

 

"ntil only one grim manse stood against them, one which Mortarion knew well. The concentration of death about it overcame his force, threatening even Mortarion himself, and so he withdrew."

 

"The Primarch's mood darkened; this day of deliverance was one he had worked for all his life, and he found himself altogether unhappy to see it co-opted by the arrival of some newcomer of uncertain agenda. Taletellers say Mortarion flattened the massive wooden door of the hall upon his entrance."

 

"Despite the affect wrought upon him by Barbarus' poisons,he connection between the new benefactor and their defender was nevertheless plain to them all. As plain as father and son. However, Mortarion was oblivious to any connection. He greeted the stranger with barely masked hostility, which quickly turned to outright anger at the stranger's utter unflappability." (Only included this because apparently "YOU'RE NOT MY DAD" was closer to the mark than I thought)

 

"Mortarion felt his moment of triumph slipping from him. Twisting the haft of his ever-present scythe until his knuckles whitened, he declared that he and his Death Guard needed no help to finish their quest for justice."

 

"It is said that the benefactor quietly challenged the stormy young Primarch's assertion, pointing out the Death Guard's failure to reach the last high citadel, and then threw down a gauntlet. If Mortarion could defeat the high overlord alone, he would withdraw and leave Barbarus to its own means. But if he failed, they would join his Imperium of Man and Mortarion would swear total fealty and allegiance to him.

 

Over the protests of his Death Guard, he spun on his heel and struck out alone for the last manse standing against him[.]"

 

"The confrontation, when it finally came, was mercilessly brief. Mortarion, choking in air so toxic that the hoses of his protective breathing gear began to rot away, struggled to the very gates of the overlord's citadel, calling out his defiance. The last thing he saw as he fell to his knees, the world turning grey as he was overcome, was the Overlord of Barbarus coming for him, to fulfill the promise he had made generations before. Then the mighty stranger stepped between them, defying the death-fog, and felling the overlord with a single blow of his gleaming sword."

 

Then, when Nurgle yells RED LIGHT at the Death Guard fleet, "it was as though he were upon the mountaintop of Barbarus once more, surrendering to the poison, without the mercy of unconsciousness to claim him or the Emperor to come to his salvation."

 

So, Mortarion decided to play savior, but found it tough, him looking like one of their hated overlords. But, he very gradually wins approval and sparks a war for dominance. Mortarion and his Death Guard are the only army capable of striking offensively, as only they can follow the enemy up into the mountains. But, his own foster father's mansion is too high for either Mortarion or his Death Guard. Both are threatened and put into retreat. When they return, Mortarion discovers the Emperor is there. His very first instinct is one of outrage, because somebody is taking his spotlight. He proceeds to angrily dismiss the fact that he literally just proved he and his army can not assault the last overlord, which was deliberate on the overlord's part, as he specifically placed his home where Mortarion couldn't reach, after studying just how far he could. The Emperor, having had his offer of help so angrily spat back in his face, calls him out on it and provides his ultimatum. Mortarion accepts it, in spite of his army of faithful followers desperately urging him not to, because they had literally just been there and knew the futility of such an attack. The fact that the Emperor did say 'alone' isn't really much of anything when you think about how that was pretty much the only thing that saved the mortal Death Guard from outright dying. So Mortarion makes his one man charge, now with the added motivation of "You son of a :cuss , I'm supposed to be the one," which was a greater motivation than all the others he already had, according to the IA. And with that, he actually manages to reach the gates this time. And just in time, too. To pass out, on his knees and choking, while the overlord walks out all nonchalant. The Emperor keeps his word, and Mortarion keeps his.

 

Only, ol' Morts apparently resented the hell out of it. He had wanted to be the savior, but was simply incapable of managing to pull it off on his own. When the helping hand was extended, he slapped it away, and went all stubborn about how it wasn't needed. Even though he had just proven how needed it was. Lo and behold, he proved it again, and now that helping hand had to do all the work for him because of his stubborn nature. Mortarion had his flaws, just like the rest of them. But like he and Angron, his eventual betrayal is rooted in how the Emperor came upon him. Unlike Angron, it was Mortarion that made the mistakes. How the Emperor handled Barbarus is probably how he should have handled Nuceria, though I'm of the opinion that Angron would have become the Angron we all know in every scenario but for the one where he dies on that planet. Even though I like to explore the idea of 'what if he didn't?'

[godking]

Lorgar : Naive & clingy and utterly unable to function without something to believe in What happened at Monarchia is partly Lorgars own fault.

 

Magnus : Reckless and arrogant he destroyed decades of work by the emperor in his effort to ''warn'' the emperor

 

Horus : Was shown the truth but he could have made another decision

 

Perturabo : Brilliant but unlikable and stubborn engaged in a one sided hatefest because Dorn had the audacity to give a fair answer to a question that Perturabo asked.

 

Alpharius :  He did'nt have to take the Cabal at their word.

 

Fulgrim : Vain and stupid the emperor did nothing to him to warrant his betrayal

 

Mortarion : The dumbest of them all rebelled to to rid the galaxy of ''sorcery''

 

 

Angron : Did'nt give a damn a bout the imperium and openly stated so was taken by the emperor from his true brothers and sisters with no explanation given. spent  a century fighting for a cause he does'nt believe in. He deserves an explanation from the Emperor and has a reason to rebel not grounded in personal flaws.

[King Jackal]

Alpharius :  He did'nt have to take the Cabal at their word.

The Acuity had more to do with the decision then what they were saying

[Hesh Kadesh]

Lorgar : Naive & clingy and utterly unable to function without something to believe in What happened at Monarchia is partly Lorgars own fault.

Hyperbole. This gets boring to read.

 

Magnus : Reckless and arrogant he destroyed decades of work by the emperor in his effort to ''warn'' the emperor

Not quite sure why warn is in "air quotes". That is exactly what he was doing. And you seem to have forgotten the bit where Magnus considered the potential consequence of his actions. Being kept ignorant of the risks of what he was doing (as well as then finding out that the reason for his existence according to a daemon was to become a massive psychic battery) meant that lack of knowledge of the scale of his actions also influenced what would happen. That Horus then engineered the mutual destruction of the Space Wolves is not known to Magnus. All he sees is that the consequence for his action is the murder of a world and his legion. Right or wrong, you don't like the person who tries to kill you

 

Horus : Was shown the truth but he could have made another decision

When a woman is confronted by the truth of her husband cheating in her, she can do one of two things. Stay and ignore the lies, or leave. Staying in a relationship with lies just ain't right.

 

Perturabo : Brilliant but unlikable and stubborn engaged in a one sided hatefest because Dorn had the audacity to give a fair answer to a question that Perturabo asked.

It is getting hard to counter your points when you don't really make a point. You are saying that of the 18 (19) Primarchs, the only one who is given bin duty, and told to be the janitor instead of achieving what they want in life, it is not going to make anyone bitter. Giving a placebo 'but its for the greater good' only carries so far. Dorn is an utter #### universally disliked. That his rude arrogant and self pompous answer and attitude made people dislike him even more is certainly a reason to further make the decision to leave easier when he is chosen as Praetorian.

 

Alpharius : He did'nt have to take the Cabal at their word.

You are right. They didn't. But it does not stop being legitimate reason to side with Horus.

 

Fulgrim : Vain and stupid the emperor did nothing to him to warrant his betrayal

Vain, yes. Stupid? Well, we have Graham McNeill for that, and he is a terrible writer whose idea of characterization is monofaceted moustache twirling villains and hyperbolic character traits. And lack of plot. I can't deny that a d it has been a long while since I read Betrayals fluff for the EC so cannot check.

 

Mortarion : The dumbest of them all rebelled to to rid the galaxy of ''sorcery''

Where did you get this bit of info from? For this is not something I have come across in the Heresy at all. Unless it is in IA which are now simply malleable source material for the writers as opposed to canon. Everything down to the colour schemes are being ignored and changed.

 

Angron : Did'nt give a damn a bout the imperium and openly stated so was taken by the emperor from his true brothers and sisters with no explanation given. spent a century fighting for a cause he does'nt believe in. He deserves an explanation from the Emperor and has a reason to rebel not grounded in personal flaws.

Using your hyperbolic and overly simplistic line of reasoning, he was saved from death, put in front of one of the deadliest fighting forces in the galaxy, and told to kill things ,,but not kill them too much. Because of this little strop he threw, he then decided sod everyone I'm going to kill you all just because he couldn't like he meant to.

 

Just realised I forgot Curze; but he was utterly broken. Everything he had tried to achieve had failed, and his legion was a shattered mess of the more evil people in society. In trying to fix those problems he was attacked, restrained and humiliated by self appointed judge jury and executioners like Dorn and Vulkan. It is no wonder he turned with Horus especially with his gift of foresight.

[helterskelter]

Mortarion hated sorcery end of, the Emperor reminded him of a tyrant/bitterness, then Horus' oratory skills, plus seeping corruption so on and do forth. Theres no need to be so bitey with your fellow forumites, just a free and loose debate about man children primarchs. Unless your name is wade, then everything is relentless sarcasm but that's cool coz that's how he rolls and inevitably elicits a chuckle. So yeah, plus alot of it can be radically oversimplified because for plot reasons the Emperor, being the epitomy of mankind, is the Epitomy also of mankinds mistakes. He has a galaxy to conquer, forgetting to give proper reasoning and instruction, stupidly assuming that fully grown men are capable of understanding a super being.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hating sorcery in general does not equate to joining horus to rid the galaxy of sorcery.

[mc warhammer]

anyone care to define "man child" because right now, all the man childish behavior being attributed to primarchs just seems...human...to me.

[Brofist]

I've never been able to read the primarch fluff and not roll my eyes a few times. I have to suspend a lot of disbelief for the fluff to make sense and their characters not be very flat. Then again, you could say that about a lot of 40k fluff. Its intended to be really crazy.

 

Man child primarchs are, I feel, are done on purpose. It lets people latch onto very specific likes and dislikes when choosing which color they want to paint their plastic mans.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

anyone care to define "man child" because right now, all the man childish behavior being attributed to primarchs just seems...human...to me.

thats basically my opinion. I've yet to see an example of a Primarch acting like a child.

[Relict]

Mortarion wanted, above all things, acceptance. 

 

We see this with his early days among the human inhabitants of Barbarus. He was at first viewed as a monster - feared as much as the necromancer overlords themselves were feared. He waited patiently for the day that he would be able to prove his worth to them. 

 

Remember the conversations between him and the Khan, both at the Triumph and on Prospero. The Khan recognized that he and Mortarion were very much alike - both were outriders who did not quite fit into the fraternity of Primarchs. The difference is that the Khan embraced this fact. Mortarion resented it. 

 

When Isstvan III came about, Mortarion's lack of self-confidence and desire to earn acceptance had already driven him into the arms of the one brother he felt could guide him - Horus. 

 

Remember which of the Chaos gods Mortarion and his Legion eventually fell to: Nurgle, the god of plague, pestilence, endurance, and acceptance. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I like Mortarion, its almost like he has imposter syndrome, I still truly believe he is good at heart, but self loathing and true denial that he could ever be anything more that evil now racks him with guilt. I also think he is no idiot, he realises he has made the wrong decisions but felt no loyalty to the loyalists either. It's a shame he and Sanguinius and Roboute never really interacted much as i think they would of given him some sort of emotional stability and due to their noble nature may of even tried to nurture him.

 

I see more of a tactical resemblance to Ferrus Manus though with Mort, both tough foot slogging forces with an appreciation for resilience, Ferrus even said it himself, the DG are all ugly b******s but there no one else he'd rather have backing in a war of attrition, and no other legion he’d despise fighting more in that situation than the DG.

 

That may have been a source of some friendly inter-legionary interest.

[Gree]

I don't know about the Primarchs being ''man children'' precisely, but it does seem to me that alot of them had self-entitlement issues or delusional perceptions. I think that might be part of the whole character of the Primarchs, being larger than life, but at the same time having larger and more intense flaws than mortal men.

 

Magnus is a good example of that, with his Faustian tragedy. Mortarion seems like he wanted to be the sole saviour of Barbarus and the one to get the credit. Otherwise, why would he have such a chip on his shoulder about the Emperor having the audacity to save his life and rescue Barbarus?

 

Lorgar wilfully ignored the reality of the Imperium around him until the Emperor personally shoved it in his face. The Lion had his whole jealously over the Warmaster issue as well. Guilliman thought he could dictate tactical doctrine to other people and threw a hissy fit when they politely refused.

 

Angron get's more of a pass from me, because he was literally driven insane by events outside his control. Angron was pretty much a lost cause once the high rider put the Butcher's Nails in his head to drive him insane.

 

Alpharius used to be like that, but with all new fluff from Black Library, I have no idea what's going on with the Alpha Legion anymore.

 

Unless your name is wade, then everything is relentless sarcasm but that's cool coz that's how he rolls and inevitably elicits a chuckle.

One man's relentless sarcasm is another man's mocking ridicule. Not everybody is amused by Wade.