twopounder Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 There is bitterness because since 2nd ed. we never had a fair treatment, exception to the v3.5 codex that DA players helped to build. It's not that we wish for a Eldar Codex but we deserve that some of the stuff we have over the years don't suck so much. Lucifer nailed the point... Yes i am not a good player but i don't mind about winning tournaments cause i play at home/club/FLGS and i dont mind losing a game if i enjoy it... I play basically with players of my level apart a couple of tournament players and i still lose almost all the matches against GK, AM, SW, eldar, necrons, and so on... just with CSM i can win... What i would like is a codex that let me use everything written in it without feeling like i am doing a wrong thing cause that unit/equipment is a totally piece of crap i love the LSV cause it's cool (better than basic LS and of the DS too) but cmon a LS that costs like 2 LS and shoots and dies like 1 is totally wrong, the sword of caliban is the sword of a champion and it's unwieldy? how can a champuion pretend to stand in a challenge always stirking last against all things? and the list can go on and on... Now we have just 3 good units in our dex (BK, DWK, sacred standards) and to be honest they are ALL overcosted: DWK basically cause since 3rd edition when all the things were reduced in points several times the terminators were reduced just 2 points in 4th edition and now they are 40 points with the sgt paying his PS like a PF while they should be 35 points maximum; BK should be 35 points for what they have not 42 points (and basic DA bikes paying 6 points a teleport homer is frankly too much considering that if you don't use DW units taht are overcosted too these are WASTED points) and all the DA standards are 10 to 20 points overcosted for what they do (the standard of fortitude costs MORE than a BA SP that gives the same FNP bonus and he is a full clad warrior too)... If we will get a DA 7th edition codex and GW wont fix these overcosted points we will be in this situation of overcosted units that cannot become troops and you will have to pay the tax of a couple of tactical/scout squads too... So basically it would kill the multiwing for games under 2k points cause (i play basically at 1500 or 1750) you are not able to put on the table enough things to exploit the sinergies pour codex offers (making you paying for that sinergy too much ofc)... Yes you can go unbound too but your opponents wil have the organized armies bonuses and we will still be the ONLY SM codex that gets a malus for its chapter tactic (stubborn but at the cost of not being able to fall back voluntary, IF dont get a malus for having bolter drill, BA dont get a draw back for having furious charge, IH dont get a draw back for having FNP)... And as Lucifer noted the 3.5 codex wasn't a GW codex but a community thing that we at B&C (and in other forums) asked to GW cause the DA codex was a piece of crap (paying 10 points more a DW terminator just for having fearless? 52 points a model for that single advantage? no way)... GW gave us a good 2nd edition codex (in line with other SM codices with just the SW one stronger than the other ones) and then 15 years of crap... It wasn't even fearless. They still had to take pinning tests :/ There is an issue of them not really thinking the codex through or the units they are designing. Why is an LSV more than leman russ executioner? In what world does that make sense? Why is a nephalim more than a valkyrie or vendetta? I would ask them to fix those units, but we all know what will happen. The crappy units will stay the same and our knights will get nerfed. Sometimes its better to go unnoticed. At least we have something right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The one thing I will miss when these books come out is the old version of codex. With how rich our concept art and backstory is, the new codex format (studio model shoot and a few lines of text) is really boring for a legion as cool as ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ugh, no offense, but you guys are making depressive and I am starting to second-guess my choice to play DA So yeah, you guys keep angrily shaking your walking sticks, I am going ahead to win some games and laugh in the face of seemingly superior foes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ugh, no offense, but you guys are making depressive and I am starting to second-guess my choice to play DA So yeah, you guys keep angrily shaking your walking sticks, I am going ahead to win some games and laugh in the face of seemingly superior foes. You really think an antagonistic statement like this is a good or productive thing to say? Do you really expect to get any good replies to this that isn't going to just dissolve into insults or further useless trolling and arguments? Do you really think anyone here would still be playing DA at all or not enjoy using them and their rules if it is so depressing? Or that you are the only one that likes them for what they are and "laughs in the face of seemingly superior foes"? I think this thread is largely about cautious optimism, if not a little crusty from over a decade of generally getting the short end of the stick compared to our battle brothers. You have to understand that DA has had a long history of being neglected/rushed or just not well thought out rules wise, and that you can't expect everyone on this board immediatly think DA won't have another "history repeats itself" situation. Also remember that people on forums or responding to a thread like this about change are generally gonna post things they don't like more than what they do, in the hopes those problems will be addressed, its just how general discourse works. Keep that in mind when responding and generalizing to whole groups in the future. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Frankly, I wasn't expecting an answer at all. But fair enough, you have a point. I am just opposed to negativism and you seem to see it a lot. Mainly DA and GK sub-forum. Not saying any of you are no real DA, you wouldn't be playing them otherwise. I also agree that you care, otherwise you wouldn't criticize. However, it is too rare that I see someone exclaim his liking DA, or someone mentioning why he enjoy playing DA, rather than mentioning missed opportunities or inefficiency of any given unit. Maybe I am wrong and my vision is very selective. Still, cheers up guys. Not everything is bad ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think this thread is largely about cautious optimism, if not a little crusty from over a decade of generally getting the short end of the stick compared to our battle brothers. You have to understand that DA has had a long history of being neglected/rushed or just not well thought out rules wise, and that you can't expect everyone on this board immediatly think DA won't have another "history repeats itself" situation. Actually it's simpler than that... It's just that 2 times in a row, DA codex was under Jervis responsability... This guy doesn't play 40k... he plays RPG with 40K rules...When he plays. In 97, it was notorius in GW that he hadn't played 40k since the very beginning of the v3... The result was highly predictable... And personnal note to Immersturm : I'm not depressed. Actually I regularly defend the codex against unjustified reproachs of weakness. It's not the highest but you can do nce thing with it. I even don't mind about the monster hunter of caliban or the LSV to be meh. Ask Tau if they ever use their bomber or eldar if they use banshees... There are always underdogs in a codex. BUT I don't tolerate amateurism when creating a range and parent codex. First you have to create the generic codex (SM) and then the other codex. Therefore you can decide which unit you put in the other codex and which don't fit. I actually don't understand why the hunter is not part of DA arsenal. The simple reason is "because DA codex was released before". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think this thread is largely about cautious optimism, if not a little crusty from over a decade of generally getting the short end of the stick compared to our battle brothers. You have to understand that DA has had a long history of being neglected/rushed or just not well thought out rules wise, and that you can't expect everyone on this board immediatly think DA won't have another "history repeats itself" situation. Actually it's simpler than that... It's just that 2 times in a row, DA codex was under Jervis responsability... This guy doesn't play 40k... he plays RPG with 40K rules...When he plays. In 97, it was notorius in GW that he hadn't played 40k since the very beginning of the v3... The result was highly predictable... And personnal note to Immersturm : I'm not depressed. Actually I regularly defend the codex against unjustified reproachs of weakness. It's not the highest but you can do nce thing with it. I even don't mind about the monster hunter of caliban or the LSV to be meh. Ask Tau if they ever use their bomber or eldar if they use banshees... There are always underdogs in a codex. BUT I don't tolerate amateurism when creating a range and parent codex. First you have to create the generic codex (SM) and then the other codex. Therefore you can decide which unit you put in the other codex and which don't fit. I actually don't understand why the hunter is not part of DA arsenal. The simple reason is "because DA codex was released before". I can respect that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 However, it is too rare that I see someone exclaim his liking DA, or someone mentioning why he enjoy playing DA, rather than mentioning missed opportunities or inefficiency of any given unit. Maybe I am wrong and my vision is very selective. Still, cheers up guys. Not everything is bad DA have awesome and really interesting lore IMO. I love how their whole knightly motiff has evolved over time, even if it was somewhat retconned from what they started with. The idea of an ecosystem developing on Caliban that naturally lead to the evolution of a perpetual knightly order worldwide; questing against calibite beasts (took me a long time to figure out they were actually chaos spawn) and the status quo that resulted, as well as the dark secrets behind why all this was going on with the watchers, Great Stuff! The heresy novels in particular going into this I really enjoyed, i just wish there was more of it and they didn't gloss over some of the transitionary periods with the Imperium coming in, but that just means the potential for more content in the future! I like how they are commonly viewed as cold and uncaring, but underneath have a strong sense of honor and duty and the protection of those who are weaker (that was after all their original purpose for existing), but also are still human and sometimes the bad wins over the good in their actions (constant battle of fear of the fallen reveal is their greatest enemy more than anyone phsyically half the time), they are the true embodiment of the "strong silent type": a lot more is commonly going on underneath the surface that is either subdued or ignored, they are almost vulcan-esque in this sense. This is really well shown in how the individual characters are developed, like the Lion, Luther and Zaharial relationship in the heresy novels (Zaharial is totally the frontrunner for who the current Cypher is imo), or Azrael's determination and Asmodia's pure hatred and being that "dick friend" everyone has and rolls their eyes at maybe, but secretly really needs and thankful to have. On the tabletop I love having the true "elite" army of space marines to pull upon with our FOC swapping, granted this could change Im not too worried, formations or alternate CADs will allow us to basically do the same as before. I love the synergy possible with the banners and the force multipliers they can be, the bolter banner in particular is fun as it enables you to get horde levels of small arms fire with a few units on the battlefield. My favorite list Ive been running lately is a RW command squad with bolter banner and bike lib with PFG behind a land raider crusader (24 twinlinked shots from the sponsons) with deathwing knights inside (maybe also an inquisitor with psychotroke grenades if I really want to get all :cussery with my opponent, nothing funnier than charging an imperial knight or hive tyrant with that and them rolling one of the funny results and then smiting it to death before it gets to respond). This is supported with additional bikes of any variety (black knights because they are amazing, or bikes with melta to tank hunt and/or use the bolter banner as needed). The rest of my points are usually either devoted to stuff that helps me castle up to counter other armies alpha strike (I like the idea of being able to alpha strike myself if I go first, or counter alpha well if I don't, which DA have the ability to do well by getting a techmarine and a darkshroud: army wide +2 cover save for almost everything, and +4 invulnerable for important command units and/or vehicles with PFG), or nasty Forgeworld units if they are allowed which fixes most of the problems we have with our other units being lackluster (fire raptors, sicarans, whirlwind scorpius with ignores cover legacy of glory, so very nasty, or how about our insanely well priced exclusive mortis dreadnought?). Also have you ever tried running an almost pure black knights army with nearly armywide +2 jink save from darkshrouds and Feel no Pain with the Fortitute banner? No one expects nearly 30 black knights to be in rapid fire range turn 1, even horde armies can get overrun by the pure firepower and CC punch, and inability to focus all their units to only half the board if you deploy right and/or outflank. Even against fliers and helturkeys it can cause issues with the massive amount of twin linked plasma and turboboosting out of threat range, its a hilariously funny and fun army to run, granted its massively spamming arguably the best unit in the codex, and if someone knows they can list tailor with the right army, but still its funny to see someone with a high tiered competitive army and list not prepared for the alpha striking plasma bath you throw at them. See? Not all doom and gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 However, it is too rare that I see someone exclaim his liking DA, or someone mentioning why he enjoy playing DA, rather than mentioning missed opportunities or inefficiency of any given unit. Maybe I am wrong and my vision is very selective. Still, cheers up guys. Not everything is bad [...] See? Not all doom and gloom You, sir, have earned my respect with that piece of text. I'd like to 'like' it a few times, but I must limit myself to only once But that is also why I fell in love with DA in the first place, way back in the beginning of 6ed. That knightly look, that underlying honour and sense of duty. Caliban was my favourite planet because of those knightly orders hunting beasts. Lion is my favourite Primarch, second only to Russ, because of his background (not so much his actions during the heresy though). And of cause the low model count and Ravenwing. Oh, and you forgot the amazingly looking range of models. Especially both Knight variants By the way, I know it is off-topic, but still: can you guys recommend me a DA novel that shows the honour, valour and courage of a DA as opposed to their darker side? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The battle of kadillus is a nice action oriented novel. The Horus Heresy DA novels have little to do with the Heresy at all. They were the first "heres whats happening elsewhere during the heresy" sort of novels. Some people like the Gav Thorpe novels but I find them to be a little uninspired . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 We are far ,far away from the 2015 campaign thread for DA so I advise that further replies focus on that. The DA power level discussion is old as dinossars and leads nowhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I wonder if the new campaign will focus on Balthazar again as leading his company or invent a new character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I wonder if the new campaign will focus on Balthazar again as leading his company or invent a new character? Would probably revolve around Cypher. I don't see them creating a new box set, so it's likely going to involve chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Does the current dark vengeance campaign tie into any dark novels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Does the current dark vengeance campaign tie into any dark novels? Yes there are Novels about the events of Dark Vengeance and they are tied with the events of Pandorax too... I dont know if they are tied with the legacy of Caliban series by Gavin Thorpe but i wouldnt be surprised about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Would be interesting to see how GW progress the dark angel story, I wonder if any of the main dark angels HQs will get involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templarphoenix Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Great, so Wolves got Dragongaze, BA has Karlaen, who will be our limited char this time? Personally I'd like 10th company, with a new mortis dreadnaught box with options for Naaman...j/k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 If its about the Fifth company, it might actually be rules for Balthazar, or, perhaps, another run of Seraphicus. With proper rules this time. Either way, I won't complain - for starters, its limited, and secondly because new rules is always interesting. As per the DA 'dex, I like its. Sure, its not perfect, and could be a lot better in its playstyle, but its not the weakest or least powered codex. That dubious honour is shared, currently, between Chaos, Necrons and Sisters imo. We are a middle of the road codex, balanced with other middle of the road codexes. There are only 2 'power' dexes in this edition - Eldar and Tau - and they can be beaten with experience, planning and skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I agree with you about Chaos, but Necrons? You must play really bad players because there is plenty of good stuff there. They are about to be updated as well so who knows what it will look like in the next month or so. As for Sisters they are definatly neglected and undeveloped, its basically just a running joke at this point, but what they do have can be pretty good: scouting mass ignores cover melta will always be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Great, so Wolves got Dragongaze, BA has Karlaen, who will be our limited char this time? Personally I'd like 10th company, with a new mortis dreadnaught box with options for Naaman...j/k. Here's hoping there's a new HQ sculpt... I hope it's of a captain from 3 - 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Considering what we already had in the DV box (a master a librarian and a chaplain) it's very hard to imagine what we could get in a campaign box... For CSM it's easier cause they don't have a plastic sorcerer in PA... About the units in the box if we will get a tactical squad BA style (I guess we could get a new tactical squad and a new basic RW squad both with all options including combi weapons and gravguns) in the campaign box I guess we will get a DW/DWK squad a BK and a LSV/DS (BA had 1 DC squad, 1 terminator squad and 1 BA dreadnought)... About the new codex I expect a 7th edition layout with alternative FOC and formation but I am not hoping in a codex the same level as SW... I guess we will get again the shorter stick this time too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Haven Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I wish for rules for Balthsar and his Fellbane, since currently I run a regular master with monster slayer sword. However, given the trends in Stormclaw and Deathstorm, I'd guess us getting a new hero scuplt is more likely than them repacking Balthasar. MY guess would be a Deathwing guy. Maybe a Knight, Belial's Champion, something like that. I'm hoping for better relics so that I can create a solid counts as for Balthasar, Turmiel and Seraphicus. (Lots of bias here as I "run" them in my 5th co list). Either way, I'm just happy to see new rules, fluff and art for us. Shield of Baal has sick art for everyone, I can't wait to see ours. As for the issue of doubt on the quality of our book? Whenever I feel despair, I remember these words: "What is it to be a Dark Angel?" It is to be the First Legion, The Honored, The Sons of the Lion. Works everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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