The extent of Paganism within a DIY-Chapter

[Filius]

I just resently realized, that all DIY-Chapter Ideas I had (even the very first ones during the 90ies) did carry the Name of an Animal (Stallions, Bears, Ravens, Wolves), an most of them lead me to Chapters with a strong pagan Background. I know that's not uncommon, even the legendary Deathwing has a strong connection to north american Paganism.

But … it keeps me wondering to which extend it is still plausible. Getting recruits from a world with a pagan Society is quite common. But already here I ask myself: Why doesn't the Ecclesiarchy send Missionaries to those Worlds know to be Pagan Recruting Worlds? That would be double worth the work: They convert a planet and after that the Chapter gets "converted" too. But that's not the question here.

Also: Choosing an Animal as a "Chapter Totem" get's you a strong starting Point. By making one Choice, you get half of the Name of your Chapter, some basic Characteristics, Options for an Iconography, first Ideas for a Color-Scheme, and probably even a Combat-Doctrine. GW has done that themselves with four of nine Loyal Legions (also counting the "Lions of the first Legion").

BUUUT … I'm pretty unsure, wether it really is a good idea. An alternative Approach to choosing a "Totem" and a pagan Chapter-Culture I currently consider, is to give the Chapter a more "everday Name", and a more or less "generic" inital Space-Marine Backgrund, but to use the Animals as a kind of "hidden template" for Characteristics, Believes, Actions and single Characters.

So the actual question of this Topics is to the Ones in the Liber with more experience in creating DIY-Chapters: When you chose to create a Chapter with a pagan Background (or just an Animal as Chapter Namegiver) – did it serve you well? Or did you get to a point, where you had to say "Ahm … no, that doesn't work in 40k".

Or to put it differently: What would you say, are the pros and cons, and dos and donts on choosing a pagan Background for a DIY-IA?

Orrr, to put even wider and adressing everyone around here: What's your opinion on Paganism/Totems/Shamanism and the like in Space Marine Chapters?

Thanks a lot for your Help in Advance!

[Aqui]

Welcome to the Liber

It's not impossible to make a Chapter that is Pagan, but there is a Canon Chapter that worshipped the Emperor in some form such as an animal (I forget the specifics now) and they were severely persecuted for it. If there was some plausible way for the Chapter to explain their beliefs as being true to the Imperial Cult, just done in an unorthodox way, they might get away from being hunted down and destroyed. The Imperium is heavily against that which stands against the "norm".

In any case, I certainly have no issue with such a Chapter. I look forward to seeing what you come up with

[Filius]

Ah, uhm … sorry, I didn't make that clear enough: I'm never planned to make a "complete" pagan Chapter. I guess the titel is quite missleading there.

The things I have thought about was: Getting Aspects and some of the Believes of the pagan Society of the World, where the Chapter recruits from into the Chapter, like Rituals, Decoration, Names, Characteristics, and yes to some degree also believes. But – at least until today – I am pretty sure that all my Space Marine have strong faith in the Emperor, be it as a human warrior and leader or even as a good.

The Deathwing and the Mortifactors are pretty good examples for the extend of paganism within the Chapter I considered "healthy". I would see most of the Paganism within the Cutlure of the Homeworld. And within the actual Chapter this culture lingers on, in a more or less conforming way.

Although … now that you said it … a "complete" pagan Chapter sounds tempting.

[Aqui]

Ah, uhm … sorry, I didn't make that clear enough: I'm never planned to make a "complete" pagan Chapter. I guess the titel is quite missleading there.

The things I have thought about was: Getting Aspects and some of the Believes of the pagan Society of the World, where the Chapter recruits from into the Chapter, like Rituals, Decoration, Names, Characteristics, and yes to some degree also believes. But – at least until today – I am pretty sure that all my Space Marine have strong faith in the Emperor, be it as a human warrior and leader or even as a good.

The Deathwing and the Mortifactors are pretty good examples for the extend of paganism within the Chapter I considered "healthy". I would see most of the Paganism within the Cutlure of the Homeworld. And within the actual Chapter this culture lingers on, in a more or less conforming way.

Although … now that you said it … a "complete" pagan Chapter sounds tempting.

Ah, I understand.

Yes, more than a few Chapter home worlds will have a culture or cultures that would be considered "Pagan". Whilst a significant portion of those beliefs would be removed, it would be interesting for the Chapter to hold on to a few

[Lysimachus]

I think the vast majority of Chapters are technically 'pagan', at least from the viewpoint of the Adeptus Ministorium. Chapter cults vary wildly, from the pragmatic soldiers to the overtly religious (and that can then vary even further from litany chanting Warrior monks to screaming bloodthirsty savages).

 

In terms of whether it can work, sure. GW have loads of examples of 'pagan' Chapters, the SW being the most obvious. Whether they get away with their beliefs in-universe or not depends either on how much political clout they have (like the 1st Founding SW) or simply by making sure the Eccliesiarchy/Inquisition doesn't know about what they get up to.

 

For example, my Marines Adamant (link in sig) believe in all manner of wights, imps and spirits from the folklore of their homeworld and wear various charms and trinkets to protect from them. However, they don't much like outsiders of any kind and so don't see any reason to explain their beliefs. Their world is utterly off limits to others (a state protected by the rights of a Chapter to claim a world for its own) so no major worries there either.

 

As an aside regarding your question about names, while they are decidedly pagan in outlook now, at their Founding their first initiates/commanders were not from the world they would later take, nor had been affected by its belief system. Hence the name of the Chapter is not particularly 'pagan' sounding.

[Filius]

@Aquilanus: Thanks! Also for the welcome!

@LySiMachus: Ah, yeah, good point! That's probably with every Chapter, right? The first "Generation" of Leaders and Trainers always comes from the outside, as well as the given Name. So, if the Name should fit to the Chapter, it has to be changed later one. I'll remember that!

[Lysimachus]

@LySiMachus: Ah, yeah, good point! That's probably with every Chapter, right? The first "Generation" of Leaders and Trainers always comes from the outside, as well as the given Name. So, if the Name should fit to the Chapter, it has to be changed later one. I'll remember that!

Well, there is a lot that we don't know about how Chapters are Founded. Many people think that a new Chapter Master doesn't necessarily name his Chapter immediately but perhaps waits until something inspires him. This also makes a certain amount of sense, or it's just a huge coincidence how often the Space *insert animal name here* Chapter end up settling on a planet where the dominant predator is a giant *insert same animal name here*. :lol:

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, there is very little remaining in the DA Codex detailing anything that has to do with North American native beliefs, and some of the stories that included those particular modified mythos components have been explained away as parables and the like, not as actual true stories.

 

To some extent a sad loss, IMO, but since a lot of it was pretty stereotypical and without much real representative merit, it's understandable that it went away.

 

There's quite a bit of latitude in a Chapter cult, but unless you are a First or Second Founding, it's probably best not to push it too far, keep some of it hidden away, etc.

[NightrawenII]

But … it keeps me wondering to which extend it is still plausible. Getting recruits from a world with a pagan Society is quite common. But already here I ask myself: Why doesn't the Ecclesiarchy send Missionaries to those Worlds know to be Pagan Recruting Worlds? That would be double worth the work: They convert a planet and after that the Chapter gets "converted" too. But that's not the question here.

According to the old ancient article about Chaplains in one of the Index Astartes books, the Astartes and Ministorum have agreement to not poke their noses into each other's business... and then you read how the Ecclesiarchy send missionaries to Fenris in Codex: Space Wolves. Hmmm.

The Steel Cobras (Do you hear Aquilanus? ) were excommunicated due to their worshipp of Emperor as animal totem, by the Cardinal no less. But in the Imperium, being excommunicated, especially for your beliefs, customs and or traditions, is more often than not matter of 'bad timing'. The Sons of Malice were persecuted for their cannibalistic rituals, yet the Mortifactors* do that left, right and center.

Orrr, to put even wider and adressing everyone around here: What's your opinion on Paganism/Totems/Shamanism and the like in Space Marine Chapters?

Well, I did ask the machine spirit of my pc and his reply was very approving.

* Not just Mortifactors, the rituals of flesh eating and blood drinking are fairly common among the Adeptus Astartes.

~ NightrawenII

[Ace Debonair]

So the actual question of this Topics is to the Ones in the Liber with more experience in creating DIY-Chapters: When you chose to create a Chapter with a pagan Background (or just an Animal as Chapter Namegiver) – did it serve you well? Or did you get to a point, where you had to say "Ahm … no, that doesn't work in 40k".

Hmm. Well, my White Hawks (who admittedly don't have an article in the Liber yet) don't draw much of their personality from their name.

They're noble, by their own standards, and proud, but everything else is either derived from generic Space Marine traits or is influenced by their homeworld.

Orrr, to put even wider and adressing everyone around here: What's your opinion on Paganism/Totems/Shamanism and the like in Space Marine Chapters?

Sounds like fun.

Just don't overplay it to a silly degree like with what happened to the Space Wolves, and it'd be a fine starting point.

[Filius]

@LySiMachus

Well, there is a lot that we don't know about how Chapters are Founded. Many people think that a new Chapter Master doesn't necessarily name his Chapter immediately but perhaps waits until something inspires him. This also makes a certain amount of sense, or it's just a huge coincidence how often the Space *insert animal name here* Chapter end up settling on a planet where the dominant predator is a giant *insert same animal name here*.

Hahaha! I can assure you: No giant Animals on my Homeworld. :D

@Bryan Blaire:

Also, there is very little remaining in the DA Codex detailing anything that has to do with North American native beliefs …

Oh really? I already had feared that, because I hadn't seen anything on that within the last years. I agree, that GW wasn't to creative there, but I would have loved to see that better explored. Native American Indians offer some fine Warrior/Artwork Background.

@NightravenII: Thanks for the Input!

Well, I did ask the machine spirit of my pc and his reply was very approving.

Thanks a lot! I'll post more on that veeery soon.

@Ace Debonair:

Sounds like fun. Just don't overplay it to a silly degree like with what happened to the Space Wolves, and it'd be a fine starting point.

Thanks, also for sharing your Experience! I hope I won't overplay to much. But you could judge on that soon. :D