Hesh Kadesh Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hit and Run on jetbikes and jump packs doesn't suck. It's really useful to keep scimitars flying. It would be if they got it Jump Packs get H&R, you'd need to take a Jump Pack equipped IC with a Jetbike unit to get that. Hit and Run for Jump Packs (weighing in at 250pts for 10 men without upgrades, i.e ridiculous) is not worth it. Your minimum troops cost is either 500 for 20 MEQ's with JP's, or 720 for 2 10 Men Tactical Squads in Storm Eagles. Assuming you want the most Hit and Run Jetbikes you need, that's 405pts minimum - and requires your Praetor to be equipped with a Jump Pack (125), and 2 Jump Pack Centurions (150). So, for 1180-1400pts, you've got your bare minimum army with Hit and Run Jump Packs, and that's before upgrades - and your "Hit & Run" Jetbikes are weighing in at around 225pts for 5-6 T5 wounds. 40pts/wound. If only Space Marine legions didn't struggle with taking down T5 models... That's It would be okay with Deep Striking, but no Fortifications means no reserves manipulation either. What Angel's Wrath should have been is the option to swap Jump Packs for a 100pt Cheaper Storm Eagle, and either assault from Deep Strike, or a Drop Pod assault type rule for Jump Packs. But it's not. It's a Limitation preventing fleixibility, with a shoddy SR benefitting it. If Storm Eagles or other Flying transports were not so expensive, that it wouldn't be so bad, but without the option to take a Dreadclaw, it's not good at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3905549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hit and Run on jetbikes and jump packs doesn't suck. It's really useful to keep scimitars flying. It would be if they got it :) Jump Packs get H&R, you'd need to take a Jump Pack equipped IC with a Jetbike unit to get that. Hit and Run for Jump Packs (weighing in at 250pts for 10 men without upgrades, i.e ridiculous) is not worth it. Your minimum troops cost is either 500 for 20 MEQ's with JP's, or 720 for 2 10 Men Tactical Squads in Storm Eagles. Assuming you want the most Hit and Run Jetbikes you need, that's 405pts minimum - and requires your Praetor to be equipped with a Jump Pack (125), and 2 Jump Pack Centurions (150). So, for 1180-1400pts, you've got your bare minimum army with Hit and Run Jump Packs, and that's before upgrades - and your "Hit & Run" Jetbikes are weighing in at around 225pts for 5-6 T5 wounds. 40pts/wound. If only Space Marine legions didn't struggle with taking down T5 models... That's It would be okay with Deep Striking, but no Fortifications means no reserves manipulation either. What Angel's Wrath should have been is the option to swap Jump Packs for a 100pt Cheaper Storm Eagle, and either assault from Deep Strike, or a Drop Pod assault type rule for Jump Packs. But it's not. It's a Limitation preventing fleixibility, with a shoddy SR benefitting it. If Storm Eagles or other Flying transports were not so expensive, that it wouldn't be so bad, but without the option to take a Dreadclaw, it's not good at all. Ohhhh, you actually give a :cuss about unit effectiveness. I don't, so that doesn't concern me at all. :D I just like the way it plays and when I play other people who play armies who only like the way the army plays, everyone has a good time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3905556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Ah, Stormwind Fallacy. You rear your head again. I do so enjoy reading about how people turn their nose up against "optimizers" because they believe (or the way they write comes across as such) that they're superior for "just playing how the army plays" Utter pishwiddle. You might enjoy playing a Jump Pack unit, and want to play jump pack unit, but if that unit cost 100 points per model for a marine with a jump pack, you wouldn't take it. If I cared about WAAC, I wouldn't be playing Word Bearers or Night Lords, or even White Scars (yes, a Legion that doesn't even have rules yet!), I'd be playing Iron Hands. I'm not one to say no to themed armies. Just that if you get massively penalised for doing so, there's no fun to be had in getting wiped. It's why I liked 7th edition, I could finally bring the Nids I had back when IA4 came out with Winged Tyrants and actually enjoy using them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3905584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 That's not a real fallacy. You can prefer to play any list as you please, I barely play and just build to collect. When I do play, it's to do something specific, not just have a game. When I build my Blood Angels they are representing something specific that ties into my Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3905659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 That wasn't the question the OP asked though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3906218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 To be fair, he asked how to make a list without being bland. :D I made a 3500 point list, just to see at what level an Angel's Wrath list would have enough bodies and anti-tank to handle Typhons and Sicarans. It ended up with 2 kitted out anti-tank Storm Eagles, a Fire Raptor, anti-tank jetbikes, and 80 bodies. While it might not take home any GT trophies, it would hardly be able to be wiped off the board easily. So a flavorful, decently competitive list is possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3906263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 For Angels Wrath at 3.5k I'd go full AirCav / Jetbikes So for HQ: Preator; Jetbike + Stuff Primus Medicae; Jetbike + Stuff Troops: Tac Squad 14 Usual Gubbins + Storm Eagle /w Lascannons and Armored Ceramite Tac Squad 14 Usual Gubbins + Storm Eagle /w Lascannons And Armored Ceramite Tac Squad 14 Usual Gubbins + Storm Eagle /w Lascannons And Armored Ceramite Tac Squad 14 Usual Gubbins + Storm Eagle /w Lascannons And Armored Ceramite Elites TBD or None, Depends. Fast Attack: Jetbikes 10, 3 MM or VC, Squad wide Melta Bombs; Sarge Optional to tank Challenges. Heavy Support: Fire Raptor /w Reapers Fire Raptor /w Reapers Fire Raptor /w Reapers All told, its not the 80 bodies of Rorh, but its 68 with the Jetbikes tallied in. Still, thats 7 Flyers and 12 Jetbikes. 4 of those flyers will be Scoring too and if using a 7th Ed CAD, they will be Objective Secured. Though Honestly, you could cut Armored Ceramite from all of them, its more of a Precaution. Lascannons on all Four Storm Eagles may also be overkill; you could cut them to redistribute the points around for more bodies or other stuff. As is, the list above is 3465 points on the nose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3906296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I think that regular Sicarans are very thematic to a Blood Angels legion force :) the fast, heavy hitting tanks are a must! If I did a force it'd look like this: Praetor +weapons and jump pack Primus Medicae +jet bike/pw/rf Command squad +weapons/shields/JPs 15 ASMs +power weapons 15 ASMs +power weapons 6 jet bikes +2 plasma cannons, all with melta bombs 2 javelin speeders +MM, missile launchers 2 Sicarans +las cannon sponsons Not super optimized but fun :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3906385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Especially hit and run being able to be used any assault phase. They should be durable enough to last the enemies turn, which is when you leggit and hit them again your turn. Adding an apothecary to JP units should assist in this also (durability factor) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3906870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think the only way to give JP units FNP is with a Primus Medicae Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yeah, Apothecaries can't take Jump Packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 First, 20 man assault squads are just over 400pts each...not the 500 (unless you give them all melta bombs) Second, an all jump pack force is viable and hella fun. That's how I run my World Eaters. I'm looking at a mirror of one of those new formations to model my upcoming BA force, the one with the 3 Ravens and 3 tacs squads. Instead I will have 3 eagles and full Tac squads with a vox. I will have a TDA Preator lead the terminator follow on assault force that use the Tac squad xoxes to home in on. The idea is that these are part of Amit's 5th company. I can run them separate and give them the generic rules or just run them as World Eaters...both work fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Using the Generic gets all your infantry Furious Charge; something I don't think the Word Eaters get you but, you can get Rage and other CC benefits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No hit and run, sadly for World eaters if using Rage. It states they must Sweeping Advannce if able to and Must Consolidate to nearest enemy unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 No hit and run, sadly for World eaters if using Rage. It states they must Sweeping Advannce if able to and Must Consolidate to nearest enemy unit. Perhaps not the place, but what does sweeping advances have to do with hit and run? You do sweeping advance if you win combat. You hit and run if still locked in combat. Unless I'm missing something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 It is an overly strict reading of 'after an assault' forcing you to consolidate. It is silly, but RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 No, no it's not...you may choose to Hit and Run after each assault phase if you are still locked. Your "RAW" makes the rule not work, if you can sweep you are no longer in combat which means you can't leave it with Hit and Run. Just sayin' An all jump army is Bawler, you can pin target units with your large squads, then follow assault with your specialty unit. Then pull you large squads out to lock something else. The 18-24 inch threat range is great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 The dudes advice abides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301154-blood-angels-in-30k-can-it-be-done/page/2/#findComment-3907678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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