Are jump units viable ?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like it says on the tin - are our new jump units viable in seventh edition and the current meta ?

 

First I'm going to compare our jump units to the army I currently play which is White Scars bikers with Space Wolves (allied). They have the following advantages for survivability:

 

T5 vs T4

3+ jink vs no jink

 

Bikers are also much faster - 12" move with 12" turbo boost. Our jump infantry at best can move a total of 18" - on average 15-16" compared to 24".

 

So to me it's looking like we will either the psychic power Invisibility or Shrouding from the Telepathy lore and you can't really count on either due to multiple reasons. Our Psykers can't cast spells from the Telepathy lore either so an ally would be needed.

 

We do have access to Angel's Wings which helps versus enemy intercepting units.

 

It's looking to me like we will need an ample amount of line of sight blocking terrain plus we've got access to FNP.

 

Thoughts ?

[bigted]

Use a wall of rhinos to block LOS, it works for me. Jump units are absolutely viable. One advantage they have is sheer killy power, a DC or SG unit will far outperform bikers in CC. 

[Shaezus]

Jump units are totally viable now.

 

I would suggest drop pods as support and distraction. You can specialise tge units in the pods i.e. Anti-armour, anti-MC etc. so that your jump assault units can focus on the rest.

 

Jump troops are perhaps the most challenging option to use, but also the most rewarding and definitely the most fun. Don't forget wings is back and it affects a whole unit now, but even without this you should still get a turn 2 charge. And a charging unit of Sanguinary Guard or Death Company with a blinged-up character or two can do things a unit of bikes couldn't possibly dream of.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Are units as good as bikes? No. Luckily, ba have access to grav bikes too. They synergise well with jumpers because they provide them with a cover save while bringing their own with them. Grav bikers + jump DC are a potent mix.

[Shaezus]

Are units as good as bikes?

What do you mean by 'good'?

 

Are you saying that, for example, Dante and 10 Sanguinary Guard would be beaten in a straight battle with a PV equivalent of 26 bikes?

[SamaNagol]

Jump Assault marines arent viable compared to their drop podding versions. Far superior.

 

However Sanguinary Guard are certainly viable given their points reduction and cumulative buffs they can gain from Sanguinary Priest and the Baal detachment special rules.

 

I still think Bike based assault units are better overall. But the Sanguinary Guard hammer unit can deal with a wide variety of targets due to their higher number of attacks.

[Shaezus]

@ Black Orange - BA librarians can no longer use the telepathy discipline, so invis ain't an option unless you take allies. This is a good thing IMO. Besides, the Sanguinary discipline suits BA perfectly regardless of if your libby is on a bike or with a JP. Only thing is wings can't be used on bikes but it can be used on jump infantry.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Are units as good as bikes?

What do you mean by 'good'?

 

Are you saying that, for example, Dante and 10 Sanguinary Guard would be beaten in a straight battle with a PV equivalent of 26 bikes?

 

 

I mean generally speaking. Of course there are some instances where Jump units are better.

[Karhedron]

Bikes and jump packs fulfil different niches IMHO. Bikes are Relentless firing platforms with the ability to charge after shooting if necessary to finish off weakened units. Jump units on the other hand make close combat a decisive prospect again, even in an edition dominated by firepower.

 

Basic assault squads are not CC powerhouses although with +1S and +1I on the charge, they are better than codex equivalents. Their strength is the ability to bring cheap special weapons and deploy them quickly (4 melta shots in a pod for 135 points? I'll take 2 :D ). Our real power-house CC units are Death Company and Sanguinary Guard who bring massed attacks and power weapons respectively to the fight.

 

Death Company are probably better in low points games as they bring their own FNP. Sanguinary Guard are more expensive and benefit from a jumping SP to bring FNP and protect the investment. Personally I think that BAs have made jump infantry respectable CC units again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

@ Black Orange - BA librarians can no longer use the telepathy discipline, so invis ain't an option unless you take allies. This is a good thing IMO. Besides, the Sanguinary discipline suits BA perfectly regardless of if your libby is on a bike or with a JP. Only thing is wings can't be used on bikes but it can be used on jump infantry.

I mentioned our Libbies can't access this lore.

How does SG gain S10? :)

[Shaezus]

 

@ Black Orange - BA librarians can no longer use the telepathy discipline, so invis ain't an option unless you take allies. This is a good thing IMO. Besides, the Sanguinary discipline suits BA perfectly regardless of if your libby is on a bike or with a JP. Only thing is wings can't be used on bikes but it can be used on jump infantry.

I mentioned our Libbies can't access this lore.

How does SG gain S10? :)

I don't know, are you going to tell me? :D

[Drunken Angel]

Like it says on the tin - are our new jump units viable in seventh edition and the current meta ?

 

First I'm going to compare our jump units to the army I currently play which is White Scars bikers with Space Wolves (allied). They have the following advantages for survivability:

 

T5 vs T4

3+ jink vs no jink

 

Bikers are also much faster - 12" move with 12" turbo boost. Our jump infantry at best can move a total of 18" - on average 15-16" compared to 24".

 

So to me it's looking like we will either the psychic power Invisibility or Shrouding from the Telepathy lore and you can't really count on either due to multiple reasons. Our Psykers can't cast spells from the Telepathy lore either so an ally would be needed.

 

We do have access to Angel's Wings which helps versus enemy intercepting units.

 

It's looking to me like we will need an ample amount of line of sight blocking terrain plus we've got access to FNP.

 

Thoughts ?

Bikes move further yes but bikes don't deepstrike, even there.

Bikes are T5 thats an advantage

Bikes get a 4+ cover save but snap fire next turn, even because

Jumpers can use cover anyway for a 5+ or 4+ and don't snap fire

Invis in its current form needs a psychic battery thats expensive if invis worked for jumpers it works for bikes too

Your average bike squad is 190 pts for 6 models?

Your average DC is 190 pts for 8 models and has 5+ FNP for free

Both get HOW

DC have more attacks at S5 making them offensively superior to bikes

All BA get S5 on the charge and are usually I5 clear win to BA jumpers here

Bikes are bikes but jumpers have tactical flexibility being able to reserve deep strike or be deployed from a raven.

 

You missed native hit and run on the WS thats a huge tactical advantage over non H&R units

 

A slight edge to WS bikers but here's the rub.  

 

 

When I run my comp elder list WS bikers are predictable and easily beaten.  BA with their abundance of melta and DS skills are very dangerous whether going first or second BA scare me as an elder playe more than White Scars 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I always give Eldar a good game with the White Scars. I think the mobile shooting platform provided by bikes is pretty strong right now.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I always give Eldar a good game with the White Scars. I think the mobile shooting platform provided by bikes is pretty strong right now.

 

I think this too, but I also believe that our jumpers are better than our bikers. The Angel's wing is a nice tool for one unit, but our regular jump troopers are quite flexible as well. Whether you want to deploy them on the table or deepstrike them, you have the options. Cheap melta delivered right to the doorsteps of your foes.

We have the ability to actually make an assault with jumpers viable in my opinion, simply because we can actually put a good amount of them on the table and due to the Red Thirst and Furious Charge army-wide.

 

If you really want to have an effective jumpers, you'd obviously take Dante. However, when taking an unnamed HQ and with a little luck on the warlord table, our already good jumpers become even more flexible with Descent of Angels. Deepstriking multiple units with meltaguns/flamers even hurts very mobile armies like Tau or Eldar, which can keep you at an arm's length and whittle you down with massed fire/stealing coversaves.

 

Bikes are good, but I feel other marine armies do it better, while we're still able to bring massed jumpers and be viable. I think it also depends a lot on your tactics and how good one is at using jumpers.

 

 

Snorri

[Deschenus Maximus]

Bikes and jump packs fulfil different niches IMHO. Bikes are Relentless firing platforms with the ability to charge after shooting if necessary to finish off weakened units. Jump units on the other hand make close combat a decisive prospect again, even in an edition dominated by firepower.

 

You said it yourself - its an edition dominated by firepower. Bikes are firepower units first. The entirety of a jump unit's viability can be negated by a simple unlucky charge distance roll. That's why bikes rate higher (generally) than jump units in my book.

 

Bikes move further yes but bikes don't deepstrike, even there.

 

Generaly, deep striking isn't a great idea. So it's not such a big advantage.

Bikes get a 4+ cover save but snap fire next turn, even because

Jumpers can use cover anyway for a 5+ or 4+ and don't snap fire

 

Why wouldn't biked be able to use normal cover, exactly? Jink is DEFINETELY a big advantage of bikers.

 

Your average bike squad is 190 pts for 6 models?

 

What? 3 bikers, 2 gravguns, multimelta attack bike. 148 pts.

 

Both get HOW

 

Jump units only get HOW if they don't use their jump pack in the movement phase. Which is practicaly never.

 

DC have more attacks at S5 making them offensively superior to bikes

 

In combat maybe, but Bikes bring A LOT more shooting than DC ever will.

 

All BA get S5 on the charge and are usually I5 clear win to BA jumpers here

 

Unless they are BA bikes, at which point they get the same advantage.

 

When I run my comp elder list WS bikers are predictable and easily beaten.  BA with their abundance of melta and DS skills are very dangerous whether going first or second BA scare me as an elder playe more than White Scars 

 

Eh. Blood Angels may have the edge against Eldar, but that doesn't make jump units more viable generaly than bikes.

 

 

 

Comments in red.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Bikes move further yes but bikes don't deepstrike, even there.

 

Generaly, deep striking isn't a great idea. So it's not such a big advantage.

 

No comment here, yet.

 

Bikes get a 4+ cover save but snap fire next turn, even because

Jumpers can use cover anyway for a 5+ or 4+ and don't snap fire

 

Why wouldn't biked be able to use normal cover, exactly? Jink is DEFINETELY a big advantage of bikers.

 

 

Your average bike squad is 190 pts for 6 models?

 

What? 3 bikers, 2 gravguns, multimelta attack bike. 148 pts.

 

Both get HOW

 

Jump units only get HOW if they don't use their jump pack in the movement phase. Which is practicaly never.

 

Maybe you don't, but I almost never use packs in the movement phase. If I plan on charging, I reserve it for the charge. 

 

I almost never use it in the moving phase. I reserve mine for hammer of wrath.

 

DC have more attacks at S5 making them offensively superior to bikes

 

In combat maybe, but Bikes bring A LOT more shooting than DC ever will.

 

How so? DC have relentless, meaning they can rapid fire rapid fire weapons while on the move. They can also fire all the special weapons, etc. 5-10 DC can match the firepower of the bikes if they are built that way. But if people play right the Bikes won't get a chance to do too much damage to the DC, and the DC will dominate in close combat.

 

All BA get S5 on the charge and are usually I5 clear win to BA jumpers here

 

Unless they are BA bikes, at which point they get the same advantage.

 

When I run my comp elder list WS bikers are predictable and easily beaten.  BA with their abundance of melta and DS skills are very dangerous whether going first or second BA scare me as an elder playe more than White Scars 

 

Eh. Blood Angels may have the edge against Eldar, but that doesn't make jump units more viable generaly than bikes.

 

Different strokes for different folks. I prefer jump units to bikes, and am willing to bet that they can ultimately do more damage if used right.

 

 

Comments in red.

 

 

Comments in green.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

 

 

Maybe you don't, but I almost never use packs in the movement phase. If I plan on charging, I reserve it for the charge. 

 

Unless you are extremely close to your opponent to begin with, your almost always better off using your jump packs in the movement phase. Losing HOW is nothing compared to failing your charge.

 

How so? DC have relentless, meaning they can rapid fire rapid fire weapons while on the move. They can also fire all the special weapons, etc. 5-10 DC can match the firepower of the bikes if they are built that way. But if people play right the Bikes won't get a chance to do too much damage to the DC, and the DC will dominate in close combat.

 

Utterly impossible for DC to be shootier than Biker. Completely and utterly impossible. They cost more and have a worse base weapon (boltguns vs. the bike's twin-linked boltgun), and their shooty weapons are all worse versions of what is available to bikes.

 

Different strokes for different folks. I prefer jump units to bikes, and am willing to bet that they can ultimately do more damage if used right.

 

I don't see any way how that is mathemathically possible. Not unless your opponent is doing all the work for you, in any case.

 

 

Comments in red.

 

 

Comments in green.

 

 

New comments in red.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you are extremely close to your opponent to begin with, your almost always better off using your jump packs in the movement phase. Losing HOW is nothing compared to failing your charge.

 

I have never failed a charge with my jump packs being used in the assault phase. The reroll for the charge helps a lot.

 

Utterly impossible for DC to be shootier than Biker. Completely and utterly impossible. They cost more and have a worse base weapon (boltguns vs. the bike's twin-linked boltgun), and their shooty weapons are all worse versions of what is available to bikes.

 

I'll do the points and weapon calculations when I get home. I drop this dispute until then.

 

I don't see any way how that is mathemathically possible. Not unless your opponent is doing all the work for you, in any case.

 

5 DC

2 attacks each.

+1 attack on charge

+1 attack due to rage

+1 attack if there is an additional close combat weapon

+1 attack if you had used unleash rage

__

5 (6) = 30 attacks without HoW 

 

That is AFTER you unload into the enemy during the shooting phase, and the flamers and hand flamers can do a massive amount of damage. 

Add in + 5 attacks for HoW. 

 

If you use the right terrain and good tactics, you can do far more damage with them than you can with bikes.

 

 

Comments in red.

 

 

Comments in green.

 

 

New comments in red.

 

New comments in Green.

[Shaezus]

So bikes are better because they are better at shooting?

 

Blimey. Correct me if I am wrong but this is BA, and if there's one thing we are not reknowned for, it's shooting.

 

You want shooty marines? Try IF.

[SnorriSnorrison]

So bikes are better because they are better at shooting?

 

Blimey. Correct me if I am wrong but this is BA, and if there's one thing we are not reknowned for, it's shooting.

 

You want shooty marines? Try IF.

 

So much this. Thank you, Sir.

 

 

Snorri

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hey guys so I was wondering if footslogging 10 man assault squads are worth it. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the melta suicide squad of death but I'm still in love the the idea of them. I was thinking of running three of them supporting the death company and sanguinary guard. I just hope it ain't a pipe dream or anything.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I have never failed a charge with my jump packs being used in the assault phase. The reroll for the charge helps a lot.

 

I find that hard to believe. If you're starting 14 inches away from your target, you'd be garanteed to succeed with a jump pack move, whereas you only have around 65% chance to succeed if you move on foot and use your jump pack in the assault phase. So either you're incredibly lucky, or you must have failed charges at least some of the time.

5 DC

2 attacks each.

+1 attack on charge

+1 attack due to rage

+1 attack if there is an additional close combat weapon

+1 attack if you had used unleash rage

__

5 (6) = 30 attacks without HoW 

 

That is AFTER you unload into the enemy during the shooting phase, and the flamers and hand flamers can do a massive amount of damage. 

Add in + 5 attacks for HoW. 

 

If you use the right terrain and good tactics, you can do far more damage with them than you can with bikes.

 

Yeah, of course DC can do more damage if they get in assault, but that is not necessarily always easy to pull off. Using the right terrain and good tactics goes both ways.

 

 

Comments in red.

 

So bikes are better because they are better at shooting?

 

Blimey. Correct me if I am wrong but this is BA, and if there's one thing we are not reknowned for, it's shooting.

 

You want shooty marines? Try IF.

 

That's... silly, I'm sorry to say. Blood Angels functionned wonderfully as a shooting army in 5th ed, and we have wonderful shooting units now. Plus, bikers CAN make use of the BA's unique bonuses. They're never going to be that DC's equal in CC, but their badassness at shooting more than makes up for it.

[Shaezus]

Guess footslogging them would make for an awesome sight and would make your oppo squee with indecision, and would be good for tieing stuff up or absorbing heavy weapon overwatch etc. but it depends if your supporting backline units can be effective or not.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Guess footslogging them would make for an awesome sight and would make your oppo squee with indecision, and would be good for tieing stuff up or absorbing heavy weapon overwatch etc. but it depends if your supporting backline units can be effective or not.

 

I was planning something like a mass of jump infantry coming your way and having drop pods coming in your back line: fragioso, flamer tactical squad and maybe sacrifice a a spot for melta death squad of doom. All led by Dante of course.

[undeadfilth]

I'm using a full JP army right now(save for 2 obligatory tactical squads, one in pod, one in rhino) and have been serving my good friend his rump on a platter.  When your rushing just shy of a hundred power armoured chaps up the field 12" a turn, your opponent is hard pressed to respond effectively.