Are jump units viable ?

[Shaezus]

I'm using a full JP army right now(save for 2 obligatory tactical squads, one in pod, one in rhino) and have been serving my good friend his rump on a platter. When your rushing just shy of a hundred power armoured chaps up the field 12" a turn, your opponent is hard pressed to respond effectively.

That's nice :)

 

What's the config of your list, if I may ask out of pure bloody-minded interest?

[shandwen]

Wow. It surprises me to see someone spamming "bikes are the awes poo mest thing eveh" here. Jump DC in particular are great. Jump units used with finese can do many things bikes can't, and play complete opisite roles. If you want a shooty marine army play IF, play WS if you have a bike fetish, but if you want to win combats with jumptroops than BA makes it viable.

[Shaezus]

That's... silly, I'm sorry to say.

What's silly is assessing units in the context of what is universally known as an assault faction and choosing them purely for their shooting ability.

 

Blood Angels functionned wonderfully as a shooting army in 5th ed,

Totally irrelevant. We're in 7th ed now.

 

and we have wonderful shooting units now. Plus, bikers CAN make use of the BA's unique bonuses.They're never going to be that DC's equal in CC, but their badassness at shooting more than makes up for it.

...

 

I can't believe my eyes here. Really, that is...just....just...so astoundingly off the mark. Seriously dude, do you realise just what you are saying? That a universal standard SM unit which has a very limited allowance for special weaponry - even when compared to other BA fire support options - is more than on a par with what is arguably THE most destructive and ferocious assault unit in the game?

 

Thanks for the chuckles. Sheesh.

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

I'm using a full JP army right now(save for 2 obligatory tactical squads, one in pod, one in rhino) and have been serving my good friend his rump on a platter. When your rushing just shy of a hundred power armoured chaps up the field 12" a turn, your opponent is hard pressed to respond effectively.

That's nice :)

 

What's the config of your list, if I may ask out of pure bloody-minded interest?

 

I second that as well. I was thinking something similar except using the sternguard formation.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Wow. It surprises me to see someone spamming "bikes are the awes poo mest thing eveh" here. Jump DC in particular are great. Jump units used with finese can do many things bikes can't, and play complete opisite roles. If you want a shooty marine army play IF, play WS if you have a bike fetish, but if you want to win combats with jumptroops than BA makes it viable.

 

Please note I didn't say jump units aren't good, just that bikes are better.

 

Did WS and IF get DC? Not last time I checked. Nor do they have fast Vindies, Fragiosos or Dante. So if I want to use those units AND bikes, there is not really much of an option beyong playing BA, is there?

 

What's silly is assessing units in the context of what is universally known as an assault faction and choosing them purely for their shooting ability.

 

Not purely for their shooting ability. Last time I checked, they can still assault and make use of FC and the Red Thirst. No, they aren't as good at bashing heads as DC are, but is there some reason why you can't use bikes AND DC in a list? No there is not.

 

Totally irrelevant. We're in 7th ed now.

 

 

You're the one who said BA are known to be an assault army. Well, at one point, they functioned better, and were known as, a shooting army. So entirely relevant.

...

 

I can't believe my eyes here. Really, that is...just....just...so astoundingly off the mark. Seriously dude, do you realise just what you are saying? That a universal standard SM unit which has a very limited allowance for special weaponry - even when compared to other BA fire support options - is more than on a par with what is arguably THE most destructive and ferocious assault unit in the game?

 

Thanks for the chuckles. Sheesh.

 

lol, ok dude. Yeah, 3 out of 4 squad members having a special or heavy weapon is a very limited allowance of special weaponry...

 

If you seriously think a DC-heavy list can hold a candle to a bike-heavy list, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

Thank YOU for the chuckle, I guess.

 

Comments in red.

[shandwen]

 

 

Wow. It surprises me to see someone spamming "bikes are the awes poo mest thing eveh" here. Jump DC in particular are great. Jump units used with finese can do many things bikes can't, and play complete opisite roles. If you want a shooty marine army play IF, play WS if you have a bike fetish, but if you want to win combats with jumptroops than BA makes it viable.

Please note I didn't say jump units aren't good, just that bikes are better.

 

Did WS and IF get DC? Not last time I checked. Nor do they have fast Vindies, Fragiosos or Dante. So if I want to use those units AND bikes, there is not really much of an option beyong playing BA, is there?

What's silly is assessing units in the context of what is universally known as an assault faction and choosing them purely for their shooting ability.

 

Not purely for their shooting ability. Last time I checked, they can still assault and make use of FC and the Red Thirst. No, they aren't as good at bashing heads as DC are, but is there some reason why you can't use bikes AND DC in a list? No there is not.

 

Totally irrelevant. We're in 7th ed now.

 

 

You're the one who said BA are known to be an assault army. Well, at one point, they functioned better, and were known as, a shooting army. So entirely relevant.

 

...

 

I can't believe my eyes here. Really, that is...just....just...so astoundingly off the mark. Seriously dude, do you realise just what you are saying? That a universal standard SM unit which has a very limited allowance for special weaponry - even when compared to other BA fire support options - is more than on a par with what is arguably THE most destructive and ferocious assault unit in the game?

 

Thanks for the chuckles. Sheesh.

 

lol, ok dude. Yeah, 3 out of 4 squad members having a special or heavy weapon is a very limited allowance of special weaponry...

 

If you seriously think a DC-heavy list can hold a candle to a bike-heavy list, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

Thank YOU for the chuckle, I guess.

Comments in red.

At this point im not sure if you are a troll or an imbicile.

[Arkangilos]

Attack Bike: 

 

Maximum shooting dice:

5(3) = 15 

2 for the Rapid fire bolter, 3 for the heavy bolter.

3 for the heavy bolter

 

Maximum number of rerolls:

2(3) = 6 

2 for the twin linked bolter.

 

Maximum CC dice (Not including Hammer of Wrath):

3(3) = 9

2 base attacks

1 attack for charing.

 

By the way, Attack Bikes can only take one upgrade, and it is from the Heavy Bolter to a Multi-Melta

____

 

Death Company: Note, I am doing the death company in five man squads, rather than the full amount.

 

Minimum shooting dice: 

5(1) = 5

5 bolt pistols

or

5 hand flamers (a single hand flamer has the potential to take out half a squad by itself)

or

5 inferno pistols

or

5 plasma pistols

or

Any combination of the above, up to five.

 

Maximum Shooting Dice 

2 (5) = 10

2 rapid fire bolt guns before the charge.

 

Minimum CC dice on turn of charge

4(5) = 20 

2 for standard attack

1 for charge

1 for rage

 

Maximum CC Dice 

5(5) = 25 

2 for standard attack

1 for extra close combat weapon

1 for charge

1 for rage.

 

Jump Packs also get to reroll the charge result, so if they fall short, they can roll again (which increases the chance of success).

DC also get FNP

DC are also fearless

 

 

That looks way better to me than an attack bike. Not to mention when boosted by your HQ choice (A librarian or a chaplain) they do way better). 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Attack Bike: 

 

Maximum shooting dice:

5(3) = 15 

2 for the Rapid fire bolter, 3 for the heavy bolter.

3 for the heavy bolter

 

Maximum number of rerolls:

2(3) = 6 

2 for the twin linked bolter.

 

Maximum CC dice (Not including Hammer of Wrath):

3(3) = 9

2 base attacks

1 attack for charing.

 

By the way, Attack Bikes can only take one upgrade, and it is from the Heavy Bolter to a Multi-Melta

____

 

Death Company: Note, I am doing the death company in five man squads, rather than the full amount.

 

Minimum shooting dice: 

5(1) = 5

5 bolt pistols

or

5 hand flamers (a single hand flamer has the potential to take out half a squad by itself)

or

5 inferno pistols

or

5 plasma pistols

or

Any combination of the above, up to five.

 

Maximum Shooting Dice 

2 (5) = 10

2 rapid fire bolt guns before the charge.

 

Minimum CC dice on turn of charge

4(5) = 20 

2 for standard attack

1 for charge

1 for rage

 

Maximum CC Dice 

5(5) = 25 

2 for standard attack

1 for extra close combat weapon

1 for charge

1 for rage.

 

Jump Packs also get to reroll the charge result, so if they fall short, they can roll again (which increases the chance of success).

DC also get FNP

DC are also fearless

 

 

That looks way better to me than an attack bike. Not to mention when boosted by your HQ choice (A librarian or a chaplain) they do way better). 

 

Why are you using Attack Bikes?

 

Bike Squad: 3 bikers, 2 gravguns, attack bike w/ multimelta. 148 pts

 

Run the number on that and an equivalent points' worth of DC, configured as you wish.

 

At this point im not sure if you are a troll or an imbicile.

 

 

Insults are the refuge of the weakminded. Oh and enjoy the report.

[Arkangilos]

 

Attack Bike: 

 

Maximum shooting dice:

5(3) = 15 

2 for the Rapid fire bolter, 3 for the heavy bolter.

3 for the heavy bolter

 

Maximum number of rerolls:

2(3) = 6 

2 for the twin linked bolter.

 

Maximum CC dice (Not including Hammer of Wrath):

3(3) = 9

2 base attacks

1 attack for charing.

 

By the way, Attack Bikes can only take one upgrade, and it is from the Heavy Bolter to a Multi-Melta

____

 

Death Company: Note, I am doing the death company in five man squads, rather than the full amount.

 

Minimum shooting dice: 

5(1) = 5

5 bolt pistols

or

5 hand flamers (a single hand flamer has the potential to take out half a squad by itself)

or

5 inferno pistols

or

5 plasma pistols

or

Any combination of the above, up to five.

 

Maximum Shooting Dice 

2 (5) = 10

2 rapid fire bolt guns before the charge.

 

Minimum CC dice on turn of charge

4(5) = 20 

2 for standard attack

1 for charge

1 for rage

 

Maximum CC Dice 

5(5) = 25 

2 for standard attack

1 for extra close combat weapon

1 for charge

1 for rage.

 

Jump Packs also get to reroll the charge result, so if they fall short, they can roll again (which increases the chance of success).

DC also get FNP

DC are also fearless

 

 

That looks way better to me than an attack bike. Not to mention when boosted by your HQ choice (A librarian or a chaplain) they do way better). 

 

Why are you using Attack Bikes?

 

Bike Squad: 3 bikers, 2 gravguns, attack bike w/ multimelta. 148 pts

 

Run the number on that and an equivalent points' worth of DC, configured as you wish.

 

At this point im not sure if you are a troll or an imbicile.

 

 

Insults are the refuge of the weakminded. Oh and enjoy the report.

 

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

[Deschenus Maximus]

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

 

The problem is that the rules just don't favour assault units in this edition. In fact, they hamstring them at nearly every turn. Bikes don't suffer nearly as much since they are a shooty unit primarily, able to assault as a damage supplement.

 

Bikes and DC do work superbly together, though. The bikes can screen the DC so they always have a cover save, and their Graviton weapons can knock the big nasties down to Init 1 to allow the DC a shot a bashing their head in before they even get a chance to swing - or failing that, they will allow the DC's fists/hammers a chance to finish the job before buying the farm.

[Shaezus]

 

 

 

Wow. It surprises me to see someone spamming "bikes are the awes poo mest thing eveh" here. Jump DC in particular are great. Jump units used with finese can do many things bikes can't, and play complete opisite roles. If you want a shooty marine army play IF, play WS if you have a bike fetish, but if you want to win combats with jumptroops than BA makes it viable.

Please note I didn't say jump units aren't good, just that bikes are better.

 

Did WS and IF get DC? Not last time I checked. Nor do they have fast Vindies, Fragiosos or Dante. So if I want to use those units AND bikes, there is not really much of an option beyong playing BA, is there?

What's silly is assessing units in the context of what is universally known as an assault faction and choosing them purely for their shooting ability.

 

Not purely for their shooting ability. Last time I checked, they can still assault and make use of FC and the Red Thirst. No, they aren't as good at bashing heads as DC are, but is there some reason why you can't use bikes AND DC in a list? No there is not.

 

Totally irrelevant. We're in 7th ed now.

 

 

You're the one who said BA are known to be an assault army. Well, at one point, they functioned better, and were known as, a shooting army. So entirely relevant.

 

...

 

I can't believe my eyes here. Really, that is...just....just...so astoundingly off the mark. Seriously dude, do you realise just what you are saying? That a universal standard SM unit which has a very limited allowance for special weaponry - even when compared to other BA fire support options - is more than on a par with what is arguably THE most destructive and ferocious assault unit in the game?

 

Thanks for the chuckles. Sheesh.

 

lol, ok dude. Yeah, 3 out of 4 squad members having a special or heavy weapon is a very limited allowance of special weaponry...

 

If you seriously think a DC-heavy list can hold a candle to a bike-heavy list, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

Thank YOU for the chuckle, I guess.

Comments in red.

At this point im not sure if you are a troll or an imbicile.

Maybe he was sent by Tzeentch himself :D I don't think the Eldar would expect us to fall for this one.

[Arkangilos]

 

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

 

The problem is that the rules just don't favour assault units in this edition. In fact, they hamstring them at nearly every turn. Bikes don't suffer nearly as much since they are a shooty unit primarily, able to assault as a damage supplement.

 

You say that, but I haven't had trouble with the assaults at all when it came to the jump packs. Even without HoW I did great with my assault marines. My JP Death Company aren't finished yet, so the DC I have used have all been on foot. In fact, my assault marines usually do so great that I usually don't even get a chance to charge because the initial shooting decimates the enemy. When they do charge it's almost just a mop up. (Most of the Time)

 

Bikes and DC do work superbly together, though. The bikes can screen the DC so they always have a cover save, and their Graviton weapons can knock the big nasties down to Init 1 to allow the DC a shot a bashing their head in before they even get a chance to swing - or failing that, they will allow the DC's fists/hammers a chance to finish the job before buying the farm.

 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

 

The problem is that the rules just don't favour assault units in this edition. In fact, they hamstring them at nearly every turn. Bikes don't suffer nearly as much since they are a shooty unit primarily, able to assault as a damage supplement.

 

You say that, but I haven't had trouble with the assaults at all when it came to the jump packs. Even without HoW I did great with my assault marines. My JP Death Company aren't finished yet, so the DC I have used have all been on foot. In fact, my assault marines usually do so great that I usually don't even get a chance to charge because the initial shooting decimates the enemy. When they do charge it's almost just a mop up. (Most of the Time)

 

Bikes and DC do work superbly together, though. The bikes can screen the DC so they always have a cover save, and their Graviton weapons can knock the big nasties down to Init 1 to allow the DC a shot a bashing their head in before they even get a chance to swing - or failing that, they will allow the DC's fists/hammers a chance to finish the job before buying the farm.

 

 

 

Then count yourself lucky. I can't count the times myself or my opponent failed a 4 inch charge to devastating effect for the assault unit.

[Shaezus]

Reports are for the weak-minded. He didn't actually insult you.

 

Personally I think your logic is heinous. You've invested too much and have too much pride to back down, and so are digging ever deeper holes in your own argument.

 

You claim that 5th edition performance is relevant to 7th edition, with its completely different codex. Explain?

 

You claim that a bikes are superior to death company because they are better at shooting. Explain, in the context of BA?

 

You claim that a bike squad, which can take only two special weapons, one heavy weapon (not the plural as you said) plus combi or pistols on the sarge is a serious amount of firepower compared to other units. Which I remind you includes devastators, units of 3 landspeeders each with 2 heavy weapons, dreadnoughts, etc. Explain?

 

Actually don't bother. If you get this thread closed down too then that would surely be a record.

[Shaezus]

 

 

I'm using a full JP army right now(save for 2 obligatory tactical squads, one in pod, one in rhino) and have been serving my good friend his rump on a platter. When your rushing just shy of a hundred power armoured chaps up the field 12" a turn, your opponent is hard pressed to respond effectively.

That's nice :)

 

What's the config of your list, if I may ask out of pure bloody-minded interest?

 

I second that as well. I was thinking something similar except using the sternguard formation.

What points level are you thinking?

 

Wondering if Devs would be better support than dreads. Have no AV units whatsoever for maximum redundancy. Gonna have to go do a list on this.

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

 

I'm using a full JP army right now(save for 2 obligatory tactical squads, one in pod, one in rhino) and have been serving my good friend his rump on a platter. When your rushing just shy of a hundred power armoured chaps up the field 12" a turn, your opponent is hard pressed to respond effectively.

That's nice :)

 

What's the config of your list, if I may ask out of pure bloody-minded interest?

 

I second that as well. I was thinking something similar except using the sternguard formation.

What points level are you thinking?

 

Wondering if Devs would be better support than dreads. Have no AV units whatsoever for maximum redundancy. Gonna have to go do a list on this.

 

Probably around 2000 points also just hit me that command squads are in the elite slot and can have three melta guns. Probably going to try it out.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

 

The problem is that the rules just don't favour assault units in this edition. In fact, they hamstring them at nearly every turn. Bikes don't suffer nearly as much since they are a shooty unit primarily, able to assault as a damage supplement.

 

You say that, but I haven't had trouble with the assaults at all when it came to the jump packs. Even without HoW I did great with my assault marines. My JP Death Company aren't finished yet, so the DC I have used have all been on foot. In fact, my assault marines usually do so great that I usually don't even get a chance to charge because the initial shooting decimates the enemy. When they do charge it's almost just a mop up. (Most of the Time)

 

Bikes and DC do work superbly together, though. The bikes can screen the DC so they always have a cover save, and their Graviton weapons can knock the big nasties down to Init 1 to allow the DC a shot a bashing their head in before they even get a chance to swing - or failing that, they will allow the DC's fists/hammers a chance to finish the job before buying the farm.

 

 

 

Then count yourself lucky. I can't count the times myself or my opponent failed a 4 inch charge to devastating effect for the assault unit.

 

If you had jump packs, did you reroll?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Reports are for the weak-minded. He didn't actually insult you.

 

Yes he did, and that you claims otherwise is laughable.

Personally I think your logic is heinous. You've invested too much and have too much pride to back down, and so are digging ever deeper holes in your own argument.

 

I actually think this applies more to you than I.

 

You claim that 5th edition performance is relevant to 7th edition, with its completely different codex. Explain?

 

You said that BA are known as an assault army. I explained that was not always the case, and doesn't need to not be currently - they have plenty enough shooting to function well as a shooty army backed up by CC to mop up.

You claim that a bikes are superior to death company because they are better at shooting. Explain, in the context of BA?

 

I don't understand what it is that you need/want me to explain. This is a shooty edition of warhammer 40k. Bikes are good shooting units, DC are not. DC are good at assault but assault is much harder to use successfully than shooting is. DC are better than Bikes at CC, but bikes can still be used in CC if required. Where am I losing you?

 

You claim that a bike squad, which can take only two special weapons, one heavy weapon (not the plural as you said) plus combi or pistols on the sarge is a serious amount of firepower compared to other units. Which I remind you includes devastators, units of 3 landspeeders each with 2 heavy weapons, dreadnoughts, etc. Explain?

 

Devastators can field 4 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad. A bike squad can field 2 specials and a heavy in a 4-man squad. Are devs shootier? Yes. Is there a massive difference in their shootyness? No. And bike squads are going to be much more effective at tackling certain targets than Devs ever will be, thanks to gravguns.

Actually don't bother. If you get this thread closed down too then that would surely be a record.

 

 

If you had jump packs, did you reroll?

 

 

No because I started too far away from the target. Had I used the jump pack in the assault phase, the chance of success would have been lower.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

To be honest, I don't know why we are arguing about this. They are both for different purposes.  DC can be as devastating (if not more so) than Bikes if used right, and Bikes can be as well. Combine them and you do even better. 

 

 

The problem is that the rules just don't favour assault units in this edition. In fact, they hamstring them at nearly every turn. Bikes don't suffer nearly as much since they are a shooty unit primarily, able to assault as a damage supplement.

 

Bikes and DC do work superbly together, though. The bikes can screen the DC so they always have a cover save, and their Graviton weapons can knock the big nasties down to Init 1 to allow the DC a shot a bashing their head in before they even get a chance to swing - or failing that, they will allow the DC's fists/hammers a chance to finish the job before buying the farm.

 

 

Emphasis mine. This is very true, but also the reason why, when played out correctly, you can really get your opponent on the wrong foot with your assault troops.

I again advise that deepstriking units that can dish out wounds on the turn they arrive and assault the next turn are a very good counter to shooty armies. Now that we've lost the FnP bubble and Descent of Angels(at least if you don't take Dante), we're worse at it than with the last codex.

 

However, against very shooty, very mobile armies(which tend to be top tier armies in tournaments, and even if not, their mobility is superior to ours) deepstriking assaulty troops with special weapons is superior to biker armies. Eldar don't care about your 12" move at all, and Tau won't even notice your 4+ cover save. They'll rip bike armies to shreds, they don't have the numbers to withstand the amount of fire over 5 turns to be effective. At least not from what I've seen. Orks can do it,  yes. Their bikes are cheaper and more killy.

 

I'm not advising against bikes, I like the concept and have been playing with the idea of getting myself a squad of them for my army. Thing is, they don't really fit in. I have a mobile melta-base, that's my Assault squad and the Sanguinary Guard(pistols). Both units I can deepstrike and when I do, most of the time, I can choose whether I'd like to have a cover save or not. The mere option of that is worth so much in so many situations. A tank in the backfield out of range of your anti-tank guns? Deepstrike 2/4 meltaguns turn 2, job done. Somethings hiding in a ruin, high AV in the front and a 4+ coversave? Nope, AV10 in the back and not 25% of it covered from the other side. It's things like this that make me choose jumpers over bikes. Flexibility. If I want to, they'll not get shot until they can impact on the game. And they bring more bodies to the field.

 

 

 

Snorri

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow I love the enthusiasm !!! <3

 

It's really drawing me back to our Chapter.

 

I have been thinking about it and realized that jump BA was really strong in editions which vehicles were not dominant:

 

Fourth edition and sixth edition (until the rise of GK when they were utterly ridiculous) really stand out. Seventh edition is a mixed bag so I think it can work again but with require a very tight TAC list featuring jump infantry, drop pod units and flyers to round it out. Stormwing seems like a solid formation... I really like the Stormfang and Stormwolf though so I could see Space Wolves fitting in plus podding Grey Hunters are simply amazing... And I'm a big fan of Rune Priests.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In regards to WS biker armies versus shooty armies I will definitely turbo boost my entire army the first turn if it's night fight right into their grill for the 2++ cover save. Versus serpent shields you still get your 3+ save so it's okay plus you can tank some wounds on multi wound characters with the 2+ artificer armor saves.

[Shaezus]

However, against very shooty, very mobile armies(which tend to be top tier armies in tournaments, and even if not, their mobility is superior to ours) deepstriking assaulty troops with special weapons is superior to biker armies. Eldar don't care about your 12" move at all, and Tau won't even notice your 4+ cover save. They'll rip bike armies to shreds, they don't have the numbers to withstand the amount of fire over 5 turns to be effective.

Spot on, Squire.

 

Eldar have a much greater range of movement wihout sacrificing firepower, but now that JP and most units in general are much cheaper we can pin them more easily. Podded melta with footslogging JP and a little long-range HS (hello, Sicaran. Eldar really don't like you) gives them little room for manouvre. It's a nice hammer and anvil method and it sums up what is one of the stand-out strong points of the new BA dex: the synergy between the different units.

[Drunken Angel]

I don't want this thread closed.  In pure terms we can argue this or that but Jumpers deal easily with issues bikes struggle with.

 

Jumpers can carry a huge variety of tactically flexible wargear.

WS/Bike lists rely on scout and early alpha strikes crippling their opponents mobility to gain the upper hand, they still have to get 1st turn/across the board to do this effectively. 

Jumpers in BA don't have trouble getting across the board combining jumping and DS.  BA scatter 1 D6 unlike any other codex (Dante)

Deepstrike means avoiding the alpha strike in almost every case

All that weaponry getting where its got to be and being unable to avoid is extremely strong tactically, you can't hide from BA jumpers/Pods (yes a few pods with templates to clear the bubble wrap)

BA have the longest range of any vindicator chassis (extra 6") another good template to clear the ground and modify model placement (very important when running assault lists (blast/templates and assault run hand in hand)

BA have the only I5 native troops on the charge.

 

It is early days we all know how WS biker spam works.  Early games have shown me that 7th ed BA shoot respectably and assault hard in a meta that does not place emphasis on assault.

 

DC without a doubt are a pre eminent assault unit in 7th and elevate BA to competitive levels just on their strengths before even looking beyond them, and there is plenty more to look to in the BA codex.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Emphasis mine. This is very true, but also the reason why, when played out correctly, you can really get your opponent on the wrong foot with your assault troops.

I again advise that deepstriking units that can dish out wounds on the turn they arrive and assault the next turn are a very good counter to shooty armies. Now that we've lost the FnP bubble and Descent of Angels(at least if you don't take Dante), we're worse at it than with the last codex.

 

However, against very shooty, very mobile armies(which tend to be top tier armies in tournaments, and even if not, their mobility is superior to ours) deepstriking assaulty troops with special weapons is superior to biker armies. Eldar don't care about your 12" move at all, and Tau won't even notice your 4+ cover save. They'll rip bike armies to shreds, they don't have the numbers to withstand the amount of fire over 5 turns to be effective. At least not from what I've seen. Orks can do it,  yes. Their bikes are cheaper and more killy.

 

Eldar Serpents might care about deep-striking meltas, but other "top tier" armies? What do Tau have to be scared of DS melta? Or Daemons? Or Bike Scars?

 

I'm not advising against bikes, I like the concept and have been playing with the idea of getting myself a squad of them for my army. Thing is, they don't really fit in. I have a mobile melta-base, that's my Assault squad and the Sanguinary Guard(pistols). Both units I can deepstrike and when I do, most of the time, I can choose whether I'd like to have a cover save or not. The mere option of that is worth so much in so many situations. A tank in the backfield out of range of your anti-tank guns? Deepstrike 2/4 meltaguns turn 2, job done. Somethings hiding in a ruin, high AV in the front and a 4+ coversave? Nope, AV10 in the back and not 25% of it covered from the other side. It's things like this that make me choose jumpers over bikes. Flexibility. If I want to, they'll not get shot until they can impact on the game. And they bring more bodies to the field.

 

Again, that is great against tanks, but tanks aren't what is dominating the meta right now. Gravbikes are a much scarier threat to most things that are actualy competitive than melta ASM ever will be.

 

[shandwen]

So back on the track of the topic: jump units are viable. They offer a cheap way of making DC mobile. Are they superior in the current meta than bikes: no. Do I care about bikes: no. Is this topic about bikes: not really (which is surprising from the amount of "grav bikes are awesome")