Are jump units viable ?

[Gaweda]

I'm not going to wade into this debate with technicalities. I will simple say that I prefer jump assault to bikes because well, it just seems more Blood Angel to me :) Grav bikes I agree would be devastating. But the simple joy and satisfaction I get from sending my death company into battle is worth more to me :)

[Shaezus]

I totally empathise with that feeling. Jump DC + a power weapon or two + several rolling charges = death slaughter murder carnage rwwwaaarrrrr fury hack slash = most awesome unit in game = one happy bunny.

 

If only everything in life was such a simple pleasure as a rampaging jump-pack death company.

[Deschenus Maximus]

So back on the track of the topic: jump units are viable. They offer a cheap way of making DC mobile. Are they superior in the current meta than bikes: no. Do I care about bikes: no. Is this topic about bikes: not really (which is surprising from the amount of "grav bikes are awesome")

 

The OP was the one talking about bikes in the first place.

 

That said, I agree. Jump units are viable now.

[SamaNagol]

I would never in my life run Blood Angels bikes. They are a waste of points. Ally in some Vanilla marines for that.

 

I like the idea of running a couple of cheap i5 DC units with just the fist or sword in there. 6 man with some target saturation. The damage output is decent and you have a chance of getting them across the table. Backed up with Melta pods you should have a nice one two punch.

[Shaezus]

Having DC in competitive form with jump packs is pure awesome. Hang on, have I said that before? Seriously though they're not just ragee personified, they are also perhaps the most versatile and adaptable unit we have, thanks to their range of weapon options for each squad member and the large unit capacity.

 

That said, when it comes to a main assault unit I prefer the SG to lead in. This gives the DC a slightly more supportive role, if you don't count the fact that they will cause absolute carnage unless they are dealt with.

 

I keep coming back round to how our units complement each other so well now. In my army the DC are secondary to SG, but both have to be dealt with on turn one or else they will go apey on something and leave your oppo weeping tears of self-pity by the end of turn two. Happy dayz indeed.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Emphasis mine. This is very true, but also the reason why, when played out correctly, you can really get your opponent on the wrong foot with your assault troops.

I again advise that deepstriking units that can dish out wounds on the turn they arrive and assault the next turn are a very good counter to shooty armies. Now that we've lost the FnP bubble and Descent of Angels(at least if you don't take Dante), we're worse at it than with the last codex.

However, against very shooty, very mobile armies(which tend to be top tier armies in tournaments, and even if not, their mobility is superior to ours) deepstriking assaulty troops with special weapons is superior to biker armies. Eldar don't care about your 12" move at all, and Tau won't even notice your 4+ cover save. They'll rip bike armies to shreds, they don't have the numbers to withstand the amount of fire over 5 turns to be effective. At least not from what I've seen. Orks can do it, yes. Their bikes are cheaper and more killy.

Eldar Serpents might care about deep-striking meltas, but other "top tier" armies? What do Tau have to be scared of DS melta? Or Daemons? Or Bike Scars?

Tau are scared of anything that takes out their heavies and support tanks like the hammerhead(you know, the big one with the lot of rockets?). Also, shield drones are usually deployed in front of units like broadsides, and a melta-wound from behind means one dead dude. Same with Crisis suits. This concept becomes amazing should your opponent be so foolish to deploy pathfinders for the markerlights. Flamers do bad things to those guys, and you don't even need jumpers for that, tacticals will do for first blood.

Daemons are scared of taking lots of saves, again, jumpers/tacticals with flamers can bring the hurt in very early turns, in coordination with your assault troops. Bike Scars I have not played against yet, I've just seen them being took apart by a very mobile Tau force on a "cities in flames" ruined-city table. Lots of ruins, and the Tau dude got the +1 coversave and move through cover(ruins) trait. Vicious stuff. Lots of markerlights with ghost suits took away cover, and then let the whole force opened up on the poor bikers.

I'm not advising against bikes, I like the concept and have been playing with the idea of getting myself a squad of them for my army. Thing is, they don't really fit in. I have a mobile melta-base, that's my Assault squad and the Sanguinary Guard(pistols). Both units I can deepstrike and when I do, most of the time, I can choose whether I'd like to have a cover save or not. The mere option of that is worth so much in so many situations. A tank in the backfield out of range of your anti-tank guns? Deepstrike 2/4 meltaguns turn 2, job done. Somethings hiding in a ruin, high AV in the front and a 4+ coversave? Nope, AV10 in the back and not 25% of it covered from the other side. It's things like this that make me choose jumpers over bikes. Flexibility. If I want to, they'll not get shot until they can impact on the game. And they bring more bodies to the field.

Again, that is great against tanks, but tanks aren't what is dominating the meta right now. Gravbikes are a much scarier threat to most things that are actualy competitive than melta ASM ever will be.

I think a good counter to bikes is the Fragioso. 6's mean dead bikes turn one, jink is not of importance for that. Just saying, but this is in a vacuum. What I was trying to say there is once you blow up a tank that you're opponent thought to be save in cover in the backfield, you're already causing distress. Once that is achieved, you have a jumping unit in the enemy's deployment zone that now is a threat to his usually shooty army.

Other than that, yes, gravbikers are probably much scarier than ASM, but they're expected. No one will fear what's expected, and they're predictable. That's a point for me, it doesn't have to be for others.

Added comments in green.

Snorri

[Deschenus Maximus]

I would never in my life run Blood Angels bikes. They are a waste of points. Ally in some Vanilla marines for that.

That will cost you an additional HQ, something not all (or most, really) lists can usually afford. BA bikes are fine. Yes, WS bikes are better, but to say ours are "a waste of points" is total hyperbole.

Tau are scared of anything that takes out their heavies and support tanks like the hammerhead(you know, the big one with the lot of rockets?).

The big one with lots of rockets is the Skyray, not the hammerhead. And its not exactly a common sight. The only tank I see on a semi-regular basis is the Hammerhead with that tank character everyone hates so much.

Also, shield drones are usually deployed in front of units like broadsides, and a melta-wound from behind means one dead dude. Same with Crisis suits.

Your opponent knows you have some melta jumpers deep striking. Why would he not take that into account and surround his suits properly, exactly?

This concept becomes amazing should your opponent be so foolish to deploy pathfinders for the markerlights. Flamers do bad things to those guys, and you don't even need jumpers for that, tacticals will do for first blood. Daemons are scared of taking lots of saves, again, jumpers/tacticals with flamers can bring the hurt in very early turns, in coordination with your assault troops.

Flamers on jumpers deep striking are not likely going to be doing much, even with Dante. To avoid Mishaps, you need to put them 7 inches away from enemy units. The flame template is 8 inches long. Unless you scatter closer, that's not going to be a lot of hits on target. And since you have the same chance to scatter AWAY from your target, drop-flaming just isn't a very reliable strategy.

Flame tacticals in a pod do it better, of course, but since we were comparing bikes to jumpers, the point is moot.

Bike Scars I have not played against yet, I've just seen them being took apart by a very mobile Tau force on a "cities in flames" ruined-city table. Lots of ruins, and the Tau dude got the +1 coversave and move through cover(ruins) trait. Vicious stuff. Lots of markerlights with ghost suits took away cover, and then let the whole force opened up on the poor bikers.

It happens. That doesn't make Bike armies bad and jump armies better. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I think a good counter to bikes is the Fragioso. 6's mean dead bikes turn one, jink is not of importance for that.

True, but again, not a Jump unit, so irrelevant to the point we are discussing.

What I was trying to say there is once you blow up a tank that you're opponent thought to be save in cover in the backfield, you're already causing distress. Once that is achieved, you have a jumping unit in the enemy's deployment zone that now is a threat to his usually shooty army.

Depends - once they are down, they are usualy in rapid-fire range of his whole army. So they might be running amok in his backfield... or they might simply be dead at this point.

Other than that, yes, gravbikers are probably much scarier than ASM, but they're expected. No one will fear what's expected, and they're predictable. That's a point for me, it doesn't have to be for others.

Jumpers might be "unexpected" now, but so were Bike Scars at some point. So that advantage is a temporary one at best.

Added comments in green.

Snorri

[MadMek83]

I think Jump units are viable. I put teleport homers on field as much as I can. One with pod, one with infitrating scouts and one storm raven. It gives me ability to drop in accurately where I need the most and also forces my opponents to be very wary of them... But sometimes bike are better like if you cannot mass teleport homers. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

I think Jump units are viable. I put teleport homers on field as much as I can. One with pod, one with infitrating scouts and one storm raven. It gives me ability to drop in accurately where I need the most and also forces my opponents to be very wary of them... But sometimes bike are better like if you cannot mass teleport homers. 

 

Small point but Scouts can only have a Teleport Homer, which don't work on Jump units.

[Shaezus]

I think Jump units are viable. I put teleport homers on field as much as I can. One with pod, one with infitrating scouts and one storm raven. It gives me ability to drop in accurately where I need the most and also forces my opponents to be very wary of them... But sometimes bike are better like if you cannot mass teleport homers.

Have never actually tried locator beacons or teleport homers in recent additions. What always put me off was the need to get your scouts / pod into a position where the beacon / homer would actually be of any use and where you weren't just giving away the scouts or pod. But for, what, the cost of two meltabombs each I can see how having a few of them strung across the board would come in handy, or at least pressure the opponent into dealing with them, thereby drawing some fire from other units of yours.

[Morticon]

 

At this point im not sure if you are a troll or an imbicile.

 

Shandwen, 

 

I've not seen your name in posts here in the BA forum, so I'm guessing you're either not that active here, or are relatively new.  

 

Either way let me give you a quick intro/refresher on how the BA forum (and B&C) works. 

 

The B&C in general is here for constructive and productive engagement with the hobby.  

Myself and the mods of the BA forum try go one step further by working towards ensuring that the community here is the most welcoming, open an courteous community despite differing opinions (which you're more than welcome to express if it falls under the guidelines listed above).  

 

It's been like this for years. 

This type of post is not acceptable and as a result you get your first warning for it.  

 

As to the rest of you- things started getting a bit testy an shirty here - if you feel yourself getting aggravated -maybe take a break and come back later to post. 

 

 

[Gaweda]

I've been thinking about this topic this morning instead of working. I think that bikes and jump units work well together. It shouldn't be a matter of 'either or', but rather using both to destroy the enemies of mankind. In quite a few games I've run bikes in the early game, and relied on jumpers in the later game after my bikes are dead. And I won them all :)

[Shaezus]

As to the rest of you- things started getting a bit testy an shirty here - if you feel yourself getting aggravated -maybe take a break and come back later to post.

 

 

Early signs of onset of the red thirst:

 

imgrefurl=http://xkcd.com/386/&h=330&w=300&tbnid=0JDOjcPPBYzZXM:&zoom=1&q=somebody+is+wrong+on+the+internet&docid=7GiNB03uLhoDmM&hl=en-GB&ei=mBGkVLGPG6Ks7Aads4GIDw&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-hms-tef-gb

[undeadfilth]

3 ten man assault squads each with one powerfist and two meltaguns, 2 10 man DC squads with bolters and close combat weapons/pistols mixed, one 10 man sanguinary guard squad with all normal glaives, one vanguard veteran squad with one powerfist, 2 Jump Sanguinary Priests, and dante.  And of course the two tactical squads as mentioned earlier.  Really fun and potentially devastating.  I split the army in half and pound up the opponents flanks, leaving center open for a pincer attack if the enemy chooses to fall back there for safety.  Has worked amazing against grey knights, salamanders, chaos marines(cultist heavy. like really heavy.  like 150 zombie heavy:P), and tyranids.

 

Blood for the blood chalice brothers!

[Shaezus]

...had to go and change my pants after reading that...

[ThatOneMarshal]

3 ten man assault squads each with one powerfist and two meltaguns, 2 10 man DC squads with bolters and close combat weapons/pistols mixed, one 10 man sanguinary guard squad with all normal glaives, one vanguard veteran squad with one powerfist, 2 Jump Sanguinary Priests, and dante. And of course the two tactical squads as mentioned earlier. Really fun and potentially devastating. I split the army in half and pound up the opponents flanks, leaving center open for a pincer attack if the enemy chooses to fall back there for safety. Has worked amazing against grey knights, salamanders, chaos marines(cultist heavy. like really heavy. like 150 zombie heavy:P), and tyranids.

 

Blood for the blood chalice brothers!

 

Sir I hope you don't mind if I steal that list from you. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'm playing a game with biker army tomorrow versus Blood Angels. I'll try to post a batrep.

[MadMek83]

 

I think Jump units are viable. I put teleport homers on field as much as I can. One with pod, one with infitrating scouts and one storm raven. It gives me ability to drop in accurately where I need the most and also forces my opponents to be very wary of them... But sometimes bike are better like if you cannot mass teleport homers.

Have never actually tried locator beacons or teleport homers in recent additions. What always put me off was the need to get your scouts / pod into a position where the beacon / homer would actually be of any use and where you weren't just giving away the scouts or pod. But for, what, the cost of two meltabombs each I can see how having a few of them strung across the board would come in handy, or at least pressure the opponent into dealing with them, thereby drawing some fire from other units of yours.

 

Indeed. My point of battle is not take everything that I can use in combat, but to grant me options to react enemy or make enemy of wary of my units, options and force him either react when I dictate the game, speed and where fighting is happening or force my enemy think all his moves carefully or else I can use effectively my options to strike flank, his rear or enforce my own weak point by deep striking units. Or simply force him trying to force the solution by attack. After all 40K is elaborate version of chess.

 

Spreading teleport homers and / or locator beacons do work wonders if you plan your army around those and delivering assault jump pack units or other deep striking forces or have those in your army lists. However it always is matter of play style. If you use defensive or passive style, or force designed around mechanized army its far less effective. 

 

After all in 40K deep striking is 3 edge sword:

1) Distract.

2) warlord / first blood / vehicle hunting.

3) enforcing weak spot in your defenses.

[Shaezus]

My 40k 3-edged sword is this:

 

1. Paper v Rock

2. Rock v Scissors

3. Scissors v Paper

 

No seriously, the majority of my victories have been crushing or 20-0 tablings. Because BA style suits the modern adage that it's not the ground that matters, but where the enemy is. Obviously maelstrom changes that, but it's still a case, IMHO, of crippling my enemy's ability to fight. I suppose you could say 'OORDA', but why complicate a simple concept.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Your opponent knows you have some melta jumpers deep striking. Why would he not take that into account and surround his suits properly, exactly?

I think you're only allowed to take so many drones per suit, and some of them are lighting-drones as well. Why my opponent didn't take that into account I don't know, it worked for me however. Also, he'll never know whether I'll be going for his tanks or his suits.

Flamers on jumpers deep striking are not likely going to be doing much, even with Dante. To avoid Mishaps, you need to put them 7 inches away from enemy units. The flame template is 8 inches long. Unless you scatter closer, that's not going to be a lot of hits on target. And since you have the same chance to scatter AWAY from your target, drop-flaming just isn't a very reliable strategy.

Flame tacticals in a pod do it better, of course, but since we were comparing bikes to jumpers, the point is moot.

This has brought my booze-fuelled mind to the idea of bringing scout bikers along with the scout squad I already have. I'll use them for early tank-busting and, if need be, assault. Their homing beacons will be very helpful for jumpers and even tacticals in a pod. You're right in some regard, flamers on deepstriking jumpers are very situational and become useless with a bad scatter roll. That's why I, when deepstriking flamers, take 2 in a small combat squad and then deepstrike them. Smaller profile and the ability to be a bit braver when deploying via deepstrike. Next time, I'll use scout bikers, as explained above.

It happens. That doesn't make Bike armies bad and jump armies better. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I never said that bike armies are bad. It's just that relying on a cover save against Tau is a bad thing when there's a comparatively low model count.

And of course my evidence is anecdotal - it's experience. I'd never suggest something based on math if I hadn't experienced it myself.

What I was trying to say there is once you blow up a tank that you're opponent thought to be save in cover in the backfield, you're already causing distress. Once that is achieved, you have a jumping unit in the enemy's deployment zone that now is a threat to his usually shooty army.

Depends - once they are down, they are usualy in rapid-fire range of his whole army. So they might be running amok in his backfield... or they might simply be dead at this point.

Yes, that point can be true - but it would also mean that the target saturation of that army and the way it is played is lacking. From turn one, I try to push forward and give my opponent something to shoot at, while taking out key units with shock assault troops. In this case, yes, a unit of jumpers will be in rapid fire range - but since this is turn two, the rest of my army will be as well. That's Baals, a Razorback, Tacticals, Death company, Sang Guard...a lot of things to shoot at, and should anything survive, turn 3 sees a massed assault.

Jumpers might be "unexpected" now, but so were Bike Scars at some point. So that advantage is a temporary one at best.

Might very well be. What I was rather talking about is the element of surprise - to deploy large(quite) numbers of marines anywhere on the table, and there's nothing that your opponent can do about it. This is, in my opinion, the true advantage over bikes, the flexibility of jump units. But, I've said that before. No need to repeat myself.

Added comments in green.

Snorri

Well, first of all, happy new year every one! I hope my hangover goes away now that the booze is out of my body. May it be a glorious year for the Sons of the Angel.

What I got from this discussion is that I'll probably need to turn some odds in my favour when playing BA - while I might get lucky and roll for the Descent of Angels warlord trait, building an army around that concept is a bit weak. To make my jumpers more reliable, I'll add a unit of 3-5 scout bikers with a homing beacon. They're fast, their astartes grenade launchers can be quite versatile, and they can be in a key position to put down a unit of jumpers without scatter.

Plus, the models are quite nice, and scouts rock.

Snorri

[Shaezus]

@ Snorri

 

When I first picked up BA after an almighty long hiatus, I was fixated on using scouts with locator beacons. But I still can't get around the fact that they need to be in position the turn before the DS units arrive. The risk here is obvious, and a small scout or scout bike unit can't survive much firepower.

 

Then there's the classic tragedy of the reserves arriving late. Poor scouts sit there waiting, DS doesn't show up, scouts get pushed back or die.

 

Just saying, it's a nice synergetic concept but fraught with huge risk.

 

There's a place for Dante in my army anyway, so getting guaranteed DoA is a bonus.

[Emperors Immortals]

I've just fed all my likes to this thread, and there's more I want to "like".

 

After a bit more discussion, I'd like to see this made into a jump tactics, I've already acquired some very good insights so far.

 

Happy NewYear Sanguinians, looking forwa d to some batreps!

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

I think you're only allowed to take so many drones per suit, and some of them are lighting-drones as well.

 

 

lighting-drones = markerlight drones? If so, the might not be able to tank the melta shot, but its still better to lose one of those than a Broadside.

 

Why my opponent didn't take that into account I don't know, it worked for me however.

 

That's good but you can't really expect him to make the same mistake over and over again.

 

Also, he'll never know whether I'll be going for his tanks or his suits.

Is he playing Farsight Enclave?

 

This has brought my booze-fuelled mind to the idea of bringing scout bikers along with the scout squad I already have. I'll use them for early tank-busting and, if need be, assault. Their homing beacons will be very helpful for jumpers and even tacticals in a pod. You're right in some regard, flamers on deepstriking jumpers are very situational and become useless with a bad scatter roll. That's why I, when deepstriking flamers, take 2 in a small combat squad and then deepstrike them. Smaller profile and the ability to be a bit braver when deploying via deepstrike. Next time, I'll use scout bikers, as explained above.

 

Not a fan of Scout Bikers, for reasons Shazeus highlighted.

 

I never said that bike armies are bad. It's just that relying on a cover save against Tau is a bad thing when there's a comparatively low model count.

 

True, but then again, that is equaly true for Jump armies. Short of Assault Marines, all BA jump units are more expensive than bikers on a model to model basis. Ergo, any pain a cover save-ignoring Ion Accelerator shot would cause a bike squad would affect a jump squad equaly, if not more.

 

What I was trying to say there is once you blow up a tank that you're opponent thought to be save in cover in the backfield, you're already causing distress.

 

This goes back to my "your opponent should've seen it coming" argument. You can count on that element of surprise for maybe a handful of times, but eventualy, people will catch on.

 

Once that is achieved, you have a jumping unit in the enemy's deployment zone that now is a threat to his usually shooty army.

 

Yes, that point can be true - but it would also mean that the target saturation of that army and the way it is played is lacking. From turn one, I try to push forward and give my opponent something to shoot at, while taking out key units with shock assault troops. In this case, yes, a unit of jumpers will be in rapid fire range - but since this is turn two, the rest of my army will be as well. That's Baals, a Razorback, Tacticals, Death company, Sang Guard...a lot of things to shoot at, and should anything survive, turn 3 sees a massed assault.

 

Well, in all likeliness, the rest of your army isn't in rapid-fire range. So nuking the deep-striking unit makes the most sense since your opponent gets the most bang for his buck, so to speak.

 

 

Might very well be. What I was rather talking about is the element of surprise - to deploy large(quite) numbers of marines anywhere on the table, and there's nothing that your opponent can do about it.

 

This is where I have to disagree. Back when full-on Descent of Angels lists were possible, people eventualy developped quite successful strategies to cope with mass DS jumpers. It should be even easier now that your army HAS to come at the enemy piecemeal since you can't hold your entire army in Reserve.

 

[ThatOneMarshal]

I think bike armies are more powerful than jump troops as of right now because 7th edition is the shooting mans game and bikes are tailored for shooting. That said I do believe that blood angels have probably the best jumpers out of all marine variants and if we want to we can still spam the hell out of them. That what I'm doing at least.

[SnorriSnorrison]

@ Snorri

 

When I first picked up BA after an almighty long hiatus, I was fixated on using scouts with locator beacons. But I still can't get around the fact that they need to be in position the turn before the DS units arrive. The risk here is obvious, and a small scout or scout bike unit can't survive much firepower.

 

Then there's the classic tragedy of the reserves arriving late. Poor scouts sit there waiting, DS doesn't show up, scouts get pushed back or die.

 

Just saying, it's a nice synergetic concept but fraught with huge risk.

 

There's a place for Dante in my army anyway, so getting guaranteed DoA is a bonus.

 

Those are excellent points that I need to ponder properly. I wasn't thinking about that, actually. The scouts would need to infiltrate 12" away from the enemy, boost up and survive a whole turn of fire and possibly close combat in order to actually bring that locator beacon into play. Difficult. Thanks for that, brother, I might have let myself get carried away there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

lighting-drones = markerlight drones? If so, the might not be able to tank the melta shot, but its still better to lose one of those than a Broadside.

 

Yes, true, but bolt pistols and one grenade are still capable of removing some drones before the meltaguns shoot.

 

That's good but you can't really expect him to make the same mistake over and over again.

 

Very true. It would be quite boring to win a game in which your opponent never learns from his mistakes.

Is he playing Farsight Enclave?

Yup.

 

Not a fan of Scout Bikers, for reasons Shazeus highlighted.

 

I can see that. Need to work that out before I go and buy the lot of them.

True, but then again, that is equaly true for Jump armies. Short of Assault Marines, all BA jump units are more expensive than bikers on a model to model basis. Ergo, any pain a cover save-ignoring Ion Accelerator shot would cause a bike squad would affect a jump squad equaly, if not more.

 

Well, yes. Kinda every unit that's on the wrong side of an Ion Accelerator is in pain. I was mainly talking about assault marines vs. bikes since they're in the same slot and fulfil similar roles. In that regard, Assault marines are a bit more resilient because of their higher numbers and lower point costs. Trikes are a different thing, and I'm not saying anything against those since no other unit can bring to the table what they do. Trikes are actually a top choice in my humble opinion. Probably bikes are, too, but for some reason, I'd rather have jumpers.

This goes back to my "your opponent should've seen it coming" argument. You can count on that element of surprise for maybe a handful of times, but eventualy, people will catch on.

 

Some will, others won't. Since I'm not playing the same people all the time, those tactics will work more often than not. ^^

 

Well, in all likeliness, the rest of your army isn't in rapid-fire range. So nuking the deep-striking unit makes the most sense since your opponent gets the most bang for his buck, so to speak.

 

 That is true for my Baals, they'll probably stay out of rapid fire range. My assault units like DC, Sang Guard and support units like scouts in RB are going to be there, closing in because of their 12" movement. The scouts will be there a bit earlier because they can scout in their vehicle.

 

 

This is where I have to disagree. Back when full-on Descent of Angels lists were possible, people eventualy developped quite successful strategies to cope with mass DS jumpers. It should be even easier now that your army HAS to come at the enemy piecemeal since you can't hold your entire army in Reserve.

 

I agree, deepstriking has become a less worthwile option. I still meet people who are not entirely prepared for deepstriking units, though. Tau are an exception with their widespread use of interceptor, but against imperial guard and eldar deepstriking units in pods and later jumpers can take out key units in early turns without returning fire or having to cross the board and soak up wounds - and clearly, bikes are better in this regard.

So, eventually, there's some stuff we both agree on and other stuff that we kindly disagree I reckon.

 

 

 

Snorri