Dualwing - DW support for RW

[Frater Cornelius]

While I am sure that this has been worked to death, allow me to ask a rather specitic question.

 

Can DW units purchased in Elite enhance an otherwise pure-ish RW army? If yes, how? What setup and what purpose?

If no, why not?

 

Cheers ;)

 

Edit: Although not really an option, is DW Troops with FA bikes possibly superior? I am not interested in that sort of setup, but just for the record.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The only way in which Deathwing enhance Ravenwing is in melee.

 

Ravenwing is stronger than Raven/Deathwing which is stronger than Death/Ravenwing in my opinion.

[SnakeChisler]

I use death wing knights with a ravenwing force sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't depends on the opponent

 

Both DA Contingents are elite & expensive points wise and tend to suffer against high volume of fire though the t5 buddy up on the knights really helps unless there are template weapons around

 

The way to get the most out of them is in conjunction with the grenade launchers on the ravenwing knights for reduced toughness & or weapon skill, the main issue is delivery standing there after dropping in for a turn isn't the best way to get into combat unfortunately land raiders cost as does air

[Larhendiel]

I often put a squad of 10 or two of 5 Deathwing knights 12" in front of my opponent, move Sammael into one of those squads and tell my opponent that now they have hit & run.

Why?

I've yet to see an opponent who won't freak out while faced by 2+/3++ hit & run termies

They attract all the firepower for one or two  turns untill they're wiped out. And thats totally worth it. Unless faced by grav-turions

[shabbadoo]

BRUTAL!!! I almost want to do that to a particular player I know.

[Syphid]

I was thinking about that earlier today.  You can deep strike Sammael with DWK, right?  So Sammael now has T6 and Eternal Warrior, with a bunch of T5 3++ Terminators with Hit & Run and extra Run distance.  Seems like it could be fun.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I'm not going to lie. If you are going purely competitive they probably aren't the most effective unit you can and will get.

 

However from a semi competitive to almost good stand point it can and will work out.

 

Best part for me is that it is massively Fluffy and can be used rather well I think. Bikes scout up DWA in and voila. A nice middle of the board army with good reaction forces and the bikes can bring all the plasma and melta you need.

 

Keep in mind my competitive awesome-fu is probably not up to your guy's standards.

 

DoC

[Master Sindiferous]

I use DW to support RW.  As stated above throw them down in front of your enemies battle line or his HQ and draw fire.  That will help your bikers move up with less fire being devoted to them. I run at least one 10 man group or two separate groups with a couple T/S Terminators in each and provide a speeder or two with missiles to support them as a faint to my main assault with RW flanking either or both sides.

 

When I get a mix of all wings I use a five to 10 man group as faint or HQ hunters, use an RW squad of 5 with a Librarian on a bike, attack bike and speeders dependent on points, post tactical squads with Aegis and quad gun to hold key terrain.

 

They are both always fun to play.  

 

On the off chance when i show up and see Baneblades and other craziness I drag out my Imperial Knight to run with RW or GW.  Showed up with DW heavy army to a 1000 point game day and my first game was played against a Baneblade.  Lasted a couple few turns but was ugly.  Knight was my birthday present last year after that game to even the odds as needed.

 

Preferred to be shaken not stirred (blended) I guess.

 

Either way play around until you find what works for you, or fits your game play style.  I enjoy the hunt and DW squads let me play that way.

 

Cheers!

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm not going to lie. If you are going purely competitive they probably aren't the most effective unit you can and will get.

 

However from a semi competitive to almost good stand point it can and will work out.

 

Best part for me is that it is massively Fluffy and can be used rather well I think. Bikes scout up DWA in and voila. A nice middle of the board army with good reaction forces and the bikes can bring all the plasma and melta you need.

 

Keep in mind my competitive awesome-fu is probably not up to your guy's standards.

 

DoC

Let me worry about what is competitive in the end and what is not. I am not going to run straight to a GT when I am done. First, there is plenty of goofing around to be done. Besides, I like Terminators :D

 

Anyway, thanks for the comments, everyone! I am tending towards two units of 5 dudes at higher point games and one unit of 5 in lower point games.

What sort of load-out would you recommend? I am definitely looking at the AsC as a heavy weapons. Would you load up the rest with CC weapons and a few SS up front? Or SB to make use of splitfire and twin linked on arrival? Damn.. why can't these guys mix and match ranged gear as well Oo.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Me personally I like the AsCan as my go to weapon with mostly storm bolters. I'd have at least one Heavy Flamer. Seems as if everyone brings a squad of something that camps on an objective using a cover save.

 

If you are finding survivability issues it seems one or two TH/SS guys works well. I personally don't like mixing them but if it works for you. If I plan on using a non-scatter deepstrike then that is the heavy flamer.

 

I like the DW Knights for my Storm Shield wielders. T5 with the 3++ seems better to me. Plus there was a article in this forum when it first came out, we gathered that usually you only use a TH/SS squad for one combat per game and then they are used for distraction or tying up stuff. The Knights will murder something better and then still be able to be a distraction unit.

 

That's what I would use for any kind of TH/SS.

 

Plasma Cannon doesn't seem worth it. So AsCan it is for me.

[SvenONE]

The RW+DW postulate! Always a favorite of mine.  The book suggests that one should be able to bring both based on their rules (scout+teleport homers).  But I think it's a misconception that you need anything more than a single RWAS squad to accomplish this.  2x Melta RWAS clocks in a decent 100pts, if you get first turn your terminators can DWA and land an alarming 6" from your enemy's deployment zone.

 

This sounds great until you start crunching numbers.  You can't do that with just 1 DWT squad, they'll be ripped to pieces and it'll be the greatest waste of points.  So I suggest 1:3 ratio of RWAS:DWT.  Even then you're probably bringing Belial also who can take a squad on his own.  With cohesion rules you can get a nice landing site for a few DWT squads.  The only problem is that you basically just spent 1000 points and lack a lot of other things in your army.

[Frater Cornelius]

What you are saying is that RW supports a DW list better than DW supporting a RW list, right?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I was thinking about that earlier today.  You can deep strike Sammael with DWK, right?  So Sammael now has T6 and Eternal Warrior, with a bunch of T5 3++ Terminators with Hit & Run and extra Run distance.  Seems like it could be fun.

 

No. You can only deep strike Sammael in his Land Speeder, in which case he doesn't benefit from the fortress of shields rule.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Yes RW supports DW better IMO. RW to bring the melta and RWBK to bring the plasma you might need. All have the teleport homers so there's your no scatter Deepstrike handled. Scouting within Melta range and then blowing up the transport so your Termi's can shoot up the squad that piles out. Black Knights for the priority targets and you've got a good army set up minus anti flyer though TL plasma guns on the Black Knights has a possibility of handling it.

 

Two Squads of RWAS with a Landspeeder each. I like HF and Multi Melta on the Landspeeders personally then I deepstrike those in. One squad of Ravenwing Black Knights and I'm pretty happy with it. You need a 2000 point game to really get the most out of it.

 

Once again all my opinion.

[Darkangeldentist]

I'll add my experience of Ravenwing with a bit of Deathwing support. 

 

I think Deathwing taken as elites add quite a lot to Ravenwing as a tough powerful unit to divert attention and smash hard to tackle targets such as super-heavies, elite well-armoured generalists (like marines) but diverting attention from the bikes is probably how I value them most. Also, since Sammael joining a unit grants the terminators hit and run you get a much more mobile and threatening squad of terminators than usual. If you take regular Deathwing Sammael will get to benefit from split-fire and adds considerable firepower to the unit making them quite threatening at range.

 

My favourite Deathwing unit for Ravenwing support has been a 7 strong unit of Deathwing knights. They fulfill the role of bullet magnet and sink perfectly with enough numbers to take a few casualties on the way in and still hit hard enough without using smite to grind through a lot of different foes. Sammael joining them just adds to the threat and resilience of the unit and they have yet to disappoint me.

 

The question about whether Ravenwing are better supporting Deathwing or the other way around isn't that important. There is a lot of synergy between the two companies and they work well together. Ravenwing are excellent objective grabbers due to their mobility and with the melta weapons they can bring are also good hunting down tanks and finishing off small elite units/monsters but they are so brittle to be almost unable to cope with any focused attention unless you are lucky with your saves. Deathwing are nearly as brittle since when the dice rolls for saving throws are bad they die just the same but in general Deathwing are more resilient, durable and bring more punch to the table than the bikes. With split-fire they are also generally more flexible dealing with multiple threats simultaneously than Ravenwing.

 

Everyone is hopefully going to find a mix and balance that works for them. I don't think there is a clear best combination out there, especially considering the range of foes we can face.

 

Best of luck.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

DEspite of al the sinergy, I use more RW with My DW to fill some holes than the other way around.

I feel I need some fast tank hunters in my DW and RW fills that spot.. If I'm playing RW then I don't actually havemuch need for stuff that DW brings to the table because comes at the price of being "slow". BUt that is just me.. :)

[Frater Cornelius]

I was actually thinking to include 1-2 DW units to come down T1 and present unavoidable targets, since more core is mostly MSU bikes for tank-hunting and capping and Black Knight, which are too valuable to be shot.

If two DW units with 1-2 TH/SS 0-1 LC and an AsC land right in front of the enemy, thanks to the delicious bacon on the bikes, the opponent will have to make a choice.

Do I kill the RWBK or Melta bikes because they cause more hurt but I will have TDA in melee against me, which I do not like, or do I shoot TDA but eat the bikes' shooting.

I like creating no-win situation like that and I would prefer it with RW Troops because of the capping prowess.

 

Besides, Sammael with his RW bikes and speeders, some DW and Sicaran Battle Tanks is basically the most amazing looking army on this side of the Shire. Gandalf approved.

[Loar]

Yeah I think Sicaran tanks fit perfectly with the ravenwing.  Fast moving and strong penetrating support fire.  Def my favorite forgeworld unit to use with RW.

 

I think with DW regardless of how many you take, if they are being used as distraction units or to create "no win scenario" style choices, they NEED to have stormshields.  The small amount of alpha or support fire they give is not worth it for less survivability for how many points you are devoting to them, use the dakka banner and other ravenwing to give the strong fire support.  They should be dropped down as close as possible to threaten command or valuable elite units, like deepstrike that termi-taint directly onto the enemy MVP unit's heads.  DWK's are the most appealing for this as already mentioned with t5.  The only army I see this just not a good option for is eldar, they are so damn scooty that even if you drop 1 inch away they are all still going to be able to run so far out you won't ever get into combat with them if they dont want it (same with DE to a good extent, although much more squishy).

[Frater Cornelius]

If I drop 1" away from Eldar, he is dead. Even if he moves 12", I move 6" after him, leaving me with a 7" charge. Manageable.

He will need to boost out of there, meaning he does not shoot. At this point RWBK will eat him alive.

 

Damn, this army concept is so amazing. I am totally in love with it. I just can't bring myself to do it though, because of the danger that 7ed update might ruin it. I put too much work into every single mini, conversion and painting, and I am not quite willing to find out that those models will be useless to me...

[Loar]

With eldar if its jetbikes they move 12, then shoot, then battle focus move d6, then move another 2d6 in the assault phase cuz of dumb eldar jetbike rules, thats a total of 12 +3d6 inches of movement while still getting to shoot, pretty untouchable for foot troops at that point (god i hate eldar jetbikes).  If its wave serpents they move far out and shoot, with troops protected inside still, or turboboost far away and dont care if they miss a turn of shooting cuz they are so durable.  Usually the eldar I face are all infantry in wave serpents, with jetbikes and skimmers/flyers.  If thats the case you just cant touch them with terminators unless you are in an assault vehicle of some kind.  Thats been my and others experience so far.